Which is more profitable, poker or blackjack?

[SleightOfHand]

So we've heard from the mathematical aspect the differences between poker and 21. Now let's talk pragmatics. Playing poker with bigger blinds is extremely tough. The level of the competition raises almost exponentially as the BB goes up. Now with BJ, raising bet sizes doesn't mean you have to be a better player, and it doesn't necessarily mean more heat. sometimes, it means more red carpet as long as they think you are big loser. Not to mention that comps are much better as a bj player than as a poker player.

choose a path. either one is going to be extremely hard. I will say that I think poker might be slightly easier because sometimes you are playing against the same ploppies that the casinos play against. but I get more thrill knowing that I am taking on a giant like a casino and beating them.

Lol you cant make a comparison saying that poker competition has an exponential growth in difficulty relative to the blind size and then say higher min/max bets in BJ may not mean more heat. Poker may not have better players at the higher stakes, it may just have bigger fish.

It is definitely true that higher min/max bets do not require more skill in the pure counting sense. However, to say that the heat does not increase, in a similar fashion to how the skills of opponents in poker increase, as your min/max bet increases, just seems folly. If such were the case, being a professional CC would be a LOT easier.

I am also unsure what you mean that poker would be easier because we are playing against the same ploppies that casinos play against. The casino does not play against players, they take a rake from the pot. And like aslan said, we are not talking about thrill, we are talking about money.

 

[SleightOfHand]

The comparison is getting skewed here because we're using the wrong winrates for poker. If you're only winning 3 bb/100 in a live NL game, you either suck or you're at the wrong game.

You should be able to get at least double that, if not significantly more in live games. It seems like people are comparing to online games, where 3bb/100 is a decent winrate.

I've had long stretches winning 10+bb/100 in live games, and I won't even sit here and tell you I'm a fantastic no limit player. But the games were so soft, you could literally peddle the nuts and get paid off every time by clowns.

Also, I think 20 full buy-ins is a rather large bankroll for NL, probably comparable to 1% risk of ruin in blackjack.

Yea, I gave the different WR for live poker lower on the first page of the thread. I believe I said something around 10-15 bb/100. And yea, with the higher win rate, the number of buy-ins are going to decrease, although I am unsure what kind of RoRs we get relative to the number of buy-ins and our WR. However, I like the 1% figure, although that is just a personal preference.

 

[fubster]

The comparison is getting skewed here because we're using the wrong winrates for poker. If you're only winning 3 bb/100 in a live NL game, you either suck or you're at the wrong game.

You should be able to get at least double that, if not significantly more in live games. It seems like people are comparing to online games, where 3bb/100 is a decent winrate.

I've had long stretches winning 10+bb/100 in live games, and I won't even sit here and tell you I'm a fantastic no limit player. But the games were so soft, you could literally peddle the nuts and get paid off every time by clowns.

Also, I think 20 full buy-ins is a rather large bankroll for NL, probably comparable to 1% risk of ruin in blackjack.

20bi for live poker is about standard, for online it's suicidally low. Also agree 100% about live winrates.

 

[fubster]

Bit off-topic but I'm gonna be playing in the World Series of Poker main event so wish me luck yall

 

[aslan]

Bit off-topic but I'm gonna be playing in the World Series of Poker main event so wish me luck yall

Best of luck, fubster. I wish I knew your WSOP name so I could follow your progress with anticipation and pride, but I can understand it if you don't PM it to me. Maybe an initial? hahaha The very best of luck to you, my friend, and may the poker gods be with you! :celebrate

 

[Jack_Black]

Hey Jack!

Where have you been? How is BJ treating you?

been around the block. Just came back from the BJ Bash actually. met a lot of site members, and quite a few impressive players. I highly recommend going.

 

[Jack_Black]

Who really cares about the thrill derived? It's about the money.

There are exactly 1,000,001 ways to make money in the world. some like to own oil companies and shat on the US coastline, other's like buying up foreclosures from distressed owners with no remorse or regard for their circumstance. I get no thrill from either of these ventures. I've been told you must do what you love and then the money will come. I like poker, but I really like the cat and mouse game of going against a casino.

Poker may not have better players at the higher stakes, it may just have bigger fish.

lol, it MAY just have bigger fish? Ummm no. why don't you jump on pokerstars right now and tell me if there's a difference in play level between .25/50 and 2/4? shoot, just login and watch a 1000/2000 game and tell me if they're just rich fish playing.

It is definitely true that higher min/max bets do not require more skill in the pure counting sense. However, to say that the heat does not increase, in a similar fashion to how the skills of opponents in poker increase, as your min/max bet increases, just seems folly. If such were the case, being a professional CC would be a LOT easier.

I never made the claim that playing pro 21 is an easy gig. it's a different game with different tough aspects. I find that heat doesn't increase when you play higher limit. only your tells will increase the heat regardless of what your bet size is. I've spread $5-100 getting sweaty from the heat. then I moved to the high limit room IN THE EXACT SAME CASINO, spread $100-$800 and got NO HEAT.

I am also unsure what you mean that poker would be easier because we are playing against the same ploppies that casinos play against. The casino does not play against players, they take a rake from the pot.

I meant that the fish sitting next to you playing poker becomes a ploppy when he decides he's had enough poker and wants to play BJ really badly. both the casino, and the AP poker player preys off the fish/ploppy.

 

[CasinoBlackjack]

CasinoBlackJack, I think you must have been asleep or on drugs or something when you wrote that Poker is a +EV game to begin with. Think about that for a minute and let me know if you still think that it is a +EV game to begin with. :laugh:

You're using the rake as a factor. If you don't have the ability to overcome the rake in Poker, then you shouldn't be playing. Poker is a neutral EV game even with the rake. Just because you overcome the rake doesn't make you an "AP"

 

[SleightOfHand]

lol, it MAY just have bigger fish? Ummm no. why don't you jump on pokerstars right now and tell me if there's a difference in play level between .25/50 and 2/4? shoot, just login and watch a 1000/2000 game and tell me if they're just rich fish playing.

I never made the claim that playing pro 21 is an easy gig. it's a different game with different tough aspects. I find that heat doesn't increase when you play higher limit. only your tells will increase the heat regardless of what your bet size is. I've spread $5-100 getting sweaty from the heat. then I moved to the high limit room IN THE EXACT SAME CASINO, spread $100-$800 and got NO HEAT.

lol this argument against me is the exact one I was making against you. In my original response to your post I was trying to show the practical worthlessness of your post when you said that that going up in stakes "doesn't necessarily mean more heat." Sure, there are always times when reality does not conform to the standards, but I wouldn't bet on it. We can all recall times where we experience events that out of the ordinary (like less heat in high limit bj games or giant fish in big poker games), but those are not events that we expect.


And what I said about bigger fish still holds true. As a matter of fact, I recall a series of High Stakes Poker episodes (around season 2 or 3 I believe) where an owner of a basketball team was joining the pros to play. As one would expect, he had to buy in a few times and ended up losing money.

Tells are part of the bj game, I suppose, although one would expect a professional player playing high stakes would already have that aspect down.

As the stakes of the players increase, I would argue that the games start becoming a lot more similar. The pro player would start having shorter sessions to minimize exposure and (at least playing solo) would probably have to start employing some cover, which would decrease his hourly expectation even further. The pro BJ player needs to travel and scout for hours between sessions, decreasing his hourly profit based on time spent towards BJ, not just play. A previous poster said something about scouting for poker players as well, so I suppose there may be more to the game as well.

 

[fubster]

Best of luck, fubster. I wish I knew your WSOP name so I could follow your progress with anticipation and pride, but I can understand it if you don't PM it to me. Maybe an initial? hahaha The very best of luck to you, my friend, and may the poker gods be with you! :celebrate

PM sent, thank you sir.

 

[fubster]

You're using the rake as a factor. If you don't have the ability to overcome the rake in Poker, then you shouldn't be playing. Poker is a neutral EV game even with the rake. Just because you overcome the rake doesn't make you an "AP"

Poker is a -EV game with the rake, pure and simple

 

[fubster]

lol, it MAY just have bigger fish? Ummm no. why don't you jump on pokerstars right now and tell me if there's a difference in play level between .25/50 and 2/4? shoot, just login and watch a 1000/2000 game and tell me if they're just rich fish playing.

I will 100% guarantee you that if there's a 1k/2k game running, there's a fish playing in it.

 

[Canceler]

poker is a -ev game with the rake, pure and simple

+1

 

[aslan]

There are exactly 1,000,001 ways to make money in the world. some like to own oil companies and shat on the US coastline, other's like buying up foreclosures from distressed owners with no remorse or regard for their circumstance. I get no thrill from either of these ventures. I've been told you must do what you love and then the money will come. I like poker, but I really like the cat and mouse game of going against a casino.

I didn't say you can't enjoy your work, but it shouldn't necessarily be the primary reason for your choice of work. Those who find a living in what they love to do are indeed blessed, but not everyone has the luxury of doing what they love with the hope that someday the money will come. I know many people who do what they love, and the money doesn't follow. It's a nice thought, but a platitude just the same. A responsible person does what he needs to do, whether that means splitting logs like Abe Lincoln, or being a garbage man for the city like many hard working individuals. To me, doing what you love is a luxury not everyone can afford.

As for AP, I hope your reason for picking it was foremost to make money. The thrill of beating the house may be icing on the cake, but I know of no one who ever said, "I love to see casinos lose money, therefore I will spend my life trying to make them lose money." If anyone does, I think they have the cart before the horse.

 

[CasinoBlackjack]

Poker is a -EV game with the rake, pure and simple

So what happens when you're at a table with everyone who understands pot odds and all the like, how are you an advantage player now?

 

[London Colin]

So what happens when you're at a table with everyone who understands pot odds and all the like, how are you an advantage player now?

If you are an AP, you get up and leave! Find another table.

It seems to me that being an AP, whether we are talking about poker, BJ, or anything else, is not about how much skill you have, it's about your ability to determine when your particular level of skill gives you an advantage, and when it does not.

You select your games and/or opponents accordingly.

I get the impression that many top poker players cannot be said to be APs, even though they may have made millions, because a combination of ego and a simple love of the game means that they would find it difficult to back away from a challenge.

 

[Adm. Buckles]

If you are an AP, you get up and leave! Find another table.

It seems to me that being an AP, whether we are talking about poker, BJ, or anything else, is not about how much skill you have, it's about your ability to determine when your particular level of skill gives you an advantage, and when it does not.

You select your games and/or opponents accordingly.

I get the impression that many top poker players cannot be said to be APs, even though they may have made millions, because a combination of ego and a simple love of the game means that they would find it difficult to back away from a challenge.

So by this definition a poker AP is a hustler?

 

[JulieCA]

TIME: Attack of the math brats

I read this article yesterday - you might find it interesting.

One of the "math brats" is playing 30 (yes, THIRTY) tournaments a night online.

 

[London Colin]

So by this definition a poker AP is a hustler?

I suppose that depends on your definition of hustler.

Doesn't hustler imply someone who hides their own abilities, usually doing some deliberate losing along the way, in order to eventually spring a trap on their victims?

Anyone successfully doing that would certainly be an AP, but an AP needn't be a hustler. There's a difference between avoiding playing at a disadvantage, and luring others into unwittingly playing at a disadvantage against you.

Either way, though, moral concerns must surely arise if you find yourself taking a significant amount of money from someone who clearly does not know what they are doing.

P.S. I'm a terrible poker player, so my interest in this is purely hypothetical.

 

[fubster]

So what happens when you're at a table with everyone who understands pot odds and all the like, how are you an advantage player now?

I don't understand the question... if you're better than they are, enough to cover the drain of the rake, then you will win. If you are all exactly equal in skill, you lose because of the rake.

TIME: Attack of the math brats

I read this article yesterday - you might find it interesting.

One of the "math brats" is playing 30 (yes, THIRTY) tournaments a night online.

Seems like a pretty light workload for a professional tournament player, actually. You have to put in a ton of volume to smooth out variance.