Which is more profitable, poker or blackjack?

[aslan]

So by this definition a poker AP is a hustler?

In poker, unlike many other games, deceit is part and parcel of the game; hence, the infamous bluff. In pool, pretending to be a poor player is generally a hustle, but in poker, except in extreme cases, I would say it is exactly what you are expected to do. Trapping ,bluffing, catching your opponent off guard are all honored and respected poker plays. Others may differ.

 

[JulieCA]

Seems like a pretty light workload for a professional tournament player, actually. You have to put in a ton of volume to smooth out variance.

Right. And it isn't something that would be feasible offline. Apparently, it's quite upsetting the "old guard" of poker tournament players.

 

[CasinoBlackjack]

I don't understand the question... if you're better than they are, enough to cover the drain of the rake, then you will win. If you are all exactly equal in skill, you lose because of the rake.

I understand now how you are claiming one can be an AP in Poker, but the title seems a bit...over the top. It's not like in Blackjack where you are an AP and you are guaranteed (I use that term loosely) to win. Just because you sit with players that you think you will be able to beat, while at the same time covering the rake, doesn't give you any advantage. You're no different than most. Blackjack counting has pre determined actions and wagers that can make you an AP. Poker not so much.

 

[Sucker]

Good Grief!
I can't believe how many people seem to think that the term AP is somehow some kind of a "sacred" word that can only apply to blackjack.

AP is an acronym that stands for the words "Advantage Player". I means JUST THAT: Someone who plays with an advantage. If you play blackjack at an advantage you are an AP. A professional poker player is an AP. So is a professional roulette player or a professional slot player. A pool hustler is an AP.There are more APs in the horse racing world than there are in the blackjack world!

When I was in 3rd grade, I took everyones' marbles from them. I was an AP marble shooter - long before I knew what AP meant.

Just because some people WANT to hijack the meaning of the term & claim it as their own, that doesn't mean that they're RIGHT.

 

[Thunder]

CasinoBJ,
If you're playing a raked game and can consistently make money, you're a poker AP. It doesn't matter how big or small the rake is. Even if you're playing a non raked game and you come out ahead consistently, you're an AP because you are MAKING MONEY. It's just harder to do so with a raked game. It doesn't matter what rules there are or what game it is. If you make money consistently playing it , then you're an AP. And the vast majority of people, I'd say about 80% of them, can't make money consistently in a 1/2 NL game. Sure they may have runs where they go up but ask them if they're still ahead after 10,000 hands and most of them won't be able to claim so. I loosely use that figure as I think it mostly takes variance into account but I'm sure some people would even say you'd need a sample size of 100,000 hands to be sure.

 

[CasinoBlackjack]

Good Grief!
I can't believe how many people seem to think that the term AP is somehow some kind of a "sacred" word that can only apply to blackjack.

AP is an acronym that stands for the words "Advantage Player". I means JUST THAT: Someone who plays with an advantage. If you play blackjack at an advantage you are an AP. A professional poker player is an AP. So is a professional roulette player or a professional slot player. A pool hustler is an AP.There are more APs in the horse racing world than there are in the blackjack world!

When I was in 3rd grade, I took everyones' marbles from them. I was an AP marble shooter - long before I knew what AP meant.

Just because some people WANT to hijack the meaning of the term & claim it as their own, that doesn't mean that they're RIGHT.

I played Poker for over 2 years online as my only means of income, I played at no Advantage over anyone as far as Poker goes. Where is the advantage?

 

[Thunder]

Your advantage was that you were a superior poker player. Maybe it has to do with you having more patience than others, maybe it's because you're better at calculating odds, or maybe you're better at reading people than others. These are what contribute to you having an advantage in poker thus being called an AP!!! Capiche?

 

[Thunder]

Update

Here's the latest update. I'm having some very positive variance here, either that or the players I've been up against really stink.

 

[aslan]

I played Poker for over 2 years online as my only means of income, I played at no Advantage over anyone as far as Poker goes. Where is the advantage?

Do you mean to say there are no ploppies at poker? Look at it this way--if you are not a poker ploppy, then you are a poker AP. It's a negative way of viewing it perhaps, but it gets you to the same place.

The truth is you do play at an advantage over others--not an advantage in so far as opportunity goes, but a clear advantage as to knowledge and experience and their application.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Do you mean to say there are no ploppies at poker? Look at it this way--if you are not a poker ploppy, then you are a poker AP. It's a negative way of viewing it perhaps, but it gets you to the same place.

The truth is you do play at an advantage over others--not an advantage in so far as opportunity goes, but a clear advantage as to knowledge and experience and their application.

I think it's possible to be neither, and I would consider myself the kind of guy who can play at an advantage against the other players but not sufficient to beat the rake. All poker players are losers to the rake, and you have to be more than just a little better than the rest to overcome it. At the BJ table it doesn't matter what anyone else does.

 

[aslan]

I think it's possible to be neither, and I would consider myself the kind of guy who can play at an advantage against the other players but not sufficient to beat the rake. All poker players are losers to the rake, and you have to be more than just a little better than the rest to overcome it.

Good point. I'm in about the same boat. Last time I played, I played all night and broke dead even. Of course, the house came out winner; it's advantage is incontrovertible--even when you overcome it, unlike Blackjack, it still wins. I suppose it is possible for the house to lose if it is paying dealers, but not enough players show up to fill the planned tables for which it has dealers on duty. Maybe that's how dealers sometimes show up in unlikely places, such as, impersonating PCs.

 

[fubster]

Just because you sit with players that you think you will be able to beat, while at the same time covering the rake, doesn't give you any advantage. You're no different than most. Blackjack counting has pre determined actions and wagers that can make you an AP. Poker not so much.

Provably false.

I played Poker for over 2 years online as my only means of income, I played at no Advantage over anyone as far as Poker goes. Where is the advantage?

If you don't have an advantage over other players, then I don't know what the discussion is even about.

 

[Jack_Black]

As for AP, I hope your reason for picking it was foremost to make money. The thrill of beating the house may be icing on the cake, but I know of no one who ever said, "I love to see casinos lose money, therefore I will spend my life trying to make them lose money." If anyone does, I think they have the cart before the horse.

Of course it is for making money. BUT it is for making money in style. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances that are wealthy through common means, real estate, businesses, financial markets. I myself dabble in a few of those ventures. But I get more of a thrill from gambling. From defeating something so evil like a casino at their own game. It's an ego thing and a righteous thing. Every time I play in a casino, I always hear remarks from crews and PCs that they should keep to themselves. They want to see everyone lose. they want to smile in your face and take your money. I've overheard jokes like "because if we called it losing, we wouldn't have any customers! ha ha!" I've had craps crews finesse me into making all the sucker bets. I am the righteous man leading the sheep away from the slaughter. well....I maybe taking away their money indirectly. but it's the thought that counts!!

I'm about to change careers to head into the finance industry. but I have this overwhelming feeling that it's going to be boring as hell. Nonetheless, I have the potential to make millions, possibly billions. But I will still love gambling and beating the house by giving them a taste of their own medicine. Playing the cat and mouse game of AP. Smiling and taking their money away.

 

[Jack_Black]

lol this argument against me is the exact one I was making against you. In my original response to your post I was trying to show the practical worthlessness of your post when you said that that going up in stakes "doesn't necessarily mean more heat." Sure, there are always times when reality does not conform to the standards, but I wouldn't bet on it. We can all recall times where we experience events that out of the ordinary (like less heat in high limit bj games or giant fish in big poker games), but those are not events that we expect.


And what I said about bigger fish still holds true. As a matter of fact, I recall a series of High Stakes Poker episodes (around season 2 or 3 I believe) where an owner of a basketball team was joining the pros to play. As one would expect, he had to buy in a few times and ended up losing money.

Tells are part of the bj game, I suppose, although one would expect a professional player playing high stakes would already have that aspect down.

As the stakes of the players increase, I would argue that the games start becoming a lot more similar. The pro player would start having shorter sessions to minimize exposure and (at least playing solo) would probably have to start employing some cover, which would decrease his hourly expectation even further. The pro BJ player needs to travel and scout for hours between sessions, decreasing his hourly profit based on time spent towards BJ, not just play. A previous poster said something about scouting for poker players as well, so I suppose there may be more to the game as well.

Alright look, your posts are getting pretty weak as your arguments start showing your lack of experience. You sound you like you read way too much and don't play enough. Or maybe you're just not addressing other issues besides the mathematical aspects of games. Think about it from a casino business standpoint for BJ. You always want to treat the whale customers like kings. You can have suspicions about a whale CC, but you better not accuse him right away of being a CC or else you just lost yourself a big customer. high limit APs get banned for cumulative wins showing on their play card, rarely straight out banning. Think about it. How many wannabe counters are there trying their hand at counting? Do they they play low or high limit? Why is it that I always meet the weakest of counters at low limit tables vs high limit tables? Plus a big business has better and more important things to do than hound customers. Of course if an AP is bleeding a casino dry, then they would step in. but in reality, and this goes for any type of business, the smaller the operation, the more they sweat the little things. Smaller casinos constantly look for Aps. That's why I get bothered when I’m in a Fremont joint spreading 5-25 vs. a strip joint 10-200. Smaller businesses in general are always on the threat of shutting down, so they look for areas to tighten up in. Bigger businesses have tons more things to worry about. Logistics, management, personnel, etc.

why are you giving a TV show as an example of rich fish? First off, it's a TV show. It's for entertainment value. Second, how many rich fish were in the entire series vs pros? Was it more or less? Now let's forget about the actual dollar amount being thrown around in the series. Would the ratio of fish to pros be the same if it were a $1/2 game? How about skill levels?

 

[UK-21]

. . . I'm about to change careers to head into the finance industry. but I have this overwhelming feeling that it's going to be boring as hell. . .

It will be.

 

[DonFinuchi]

I can se how it is not so easy to declare yourself a poker AP. You can be an AP at one table, while not at another. It can however be very difficult to identify when you have advantage. For instance you spot a table where there are some players that you think are fishes, and you think you are a better player, and you therefore think you would have advantage over them. The problem with this (as I see it) is that this is based on assumptions.

In BJ you can determine your advantage based on the rules and your strategy (assuming that you have the ability to execute correctly, and the house does not cheat), and you can therefore say "I am an advatage player, period!".

 

[fubster]

Look, honestly it's absurd trying to compare highstakes poker with highstakes blackjack in terms of some sort of skill differential.

Who cares? Some live 25/50 games are the best games in the world, some are tough nuts to crack. Whatever.

Think of it this way: there are some lowstakes blackjack games that are great. Then you have some that are awful.

There are some highstakes blackjack games that are great. You have some that are awful.

Repeat that, replace blackjack with poker.

It's part of the game. Find the best games, win money.

 

[aslan]

Of course it is for making money. BUT it is for making money in style. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances that are wealthy through common means, real estate, businesses, financial markets. I myself dabble in a few of those ventures. But I get more of a thrill from gambling. From defeating something so evil like a casino at their own game. It's an ego thing and a righteous thing. Every time I play in a casino, I always hear remarks from crews and PCs that they should keep to themselves. They want to see everyone lose. they want to smile in your face and take your money. I've overheard jokes like "because if we called it losing, we wouldn't have any customers! ha ha!" I've had craps crews finesse me into making all the sucker bets. I am the righteous man leading the sheep away from the slaughter. well....I maybe taking away their money indirectly. but it's the thought that counts!!

I'm about to change careers to head into the finance industry. but I have this overwhelming feeling that it's going to be boring as hell. Nonetheless, I have the potential to make millions, possibly billions. But I will still love gambling and beating the house by giving them a taste of their own medicine. Playing the cat and mouse game of AP. Smiling and taking their money away.

There's a certain glamor that comes with gambling, and even more so, beating the evil casinos, I suppose. That is why John Dillinger was so much a hero to poor folks, robbing those evil bankers during the Great Depression when the common man had nothing.

But let's take a fair look at casinos. Without them we would be gambling in illegal mob-run joints where there would be no protection against house cheating. Without them we would be prey to hustlers at every turn.

So along come the casinos, regulated by the state, giving us a safe place to gamble, safe from the crooks and hustlers, safe from everyone except maybe ourselves...oh, and the dreaded house edge!

But first, don't casinos have to make a profit similar to the guy who has a home poker game? He cuts the pot for the deli and other treats he provides for gang, plus he takes a little for himself as payment for providing a place for everyone to meet into the wee hours of the morning.

Casinos have large staffs to pay, utility bills for lighting and heating/cooling their facilities, the cost of buildings and parking lots and their maintenance, and every other cost common to ordinary businesses For that reason, they must have an advantage, or soon they would all be out of business.

The only thing I think anyone can quibble about is the amount of the house edge, and even that does not seem so great as they undergo hard times, such as the recession we are now living through. Not only that, their house edge is subject to the competitive pressures of other casinos. So where's all the evil? Are they making obscene profits? Is all of Wall Street running to invest in this most lucrative of businesses? Not really.

No, the only thing I can really fault casinos for is not advertising more the risks involved for its customers. Every wall should be plastered with the true odds for each and every game offered. But that, of course, would put a damper on business----I think----nobody has ever done it. But if that be the case, the casinos would have to increase their advantage in order to make a reasonable profit. I certainly don't want an increase in the house edge. Hmmmm! Maybe we should outlaw them altogether.

Outlaw those dirty casinos. But should we start with casinos.........or with breweries, bars, distilleries, cigarette companies, candy manufacturers, fast food restaurants, soda pop companies, carnivals, hot dog stands, porn shows, car races, dog tracks, race tracks, hai alai.......heck, why don't we simplify things and make it against the law to make up your own mind! After all, people are so stupid! They seldom make the right choices in life. If we can't trust them to avoid gambling to excess, what can we trust them to do? Certainly not pick an appropriate marriage partner, what with more than 50% divorce rate!

Down with freedom! Yes, that's the ticket! Save the human race! Outlaw freedom to choose! Enforce morality! Make the bastrds tow the line! Long live the collective! Up with the good and down with the bad! Long live the Borg!

Now see what you've started, Jack_Black!!!???

 

[SleightOfHand]

Alright look, your posts are getting pretty weak as your arguments start showing your lack of experience. You sound you like you read way too much and don't play enough. Or maybe you're just not addressing other issues besides the mathematical aspects of games. Think about it from a casino business standpoint for BJ. You always want to treat the whale customers like kings. You can have suspicions about a whale CC, but you better not accuse him right away of being a CC or else you just lost yourself a big customer. high limit APs get banned for cumulative wins showing on their play card, rarely straight out banning. Think about it. How many wannabe counters are there trying their hand at counting? Do they they play low or high limit? Why is it that I always meet the weakest of counters at low limit tables vs high limit tables? Plus a big business has better and more important things to do than hound customers. Of course if an AP is bleeding a casino dry, then they would step in. but in reality, and this goes for any type of business, the smaller the operation, the more they sweat the little things. Smaller casinos constantly look for Aps. That's why I get bothered when I’m in a Fremont joint spreading 5-25 vs. a strip joint 10-200. Smaller businesses in general are always on the threat of shutting down, so they look for areas to tighten up in. Bigger businesses have tons more things to worry about. Logistics, management, personnel, etc.

why are you giving a TV show as an example of rich fish? First off, it's a TV show. It's for entertainment value. Second, how many rich fish were in the entire series vs pros? Was it more or less? Now let's forget about the actual dollar amount being thrown around in the series. Would the ratio of fish to pros be the same if it were a $1/2 game? How about skill levels?

lol So... that would mean that a solution or a way to prevent heat is to bet more, as long as you don't use a player's card. As for the show, yes it is for entertainment, but it is still an open cash game in a casino that anyone is allowed to join if they have the minimum buy-in. As far as fish (in the sense of beatable players, not loose/passive players), they are not separate from pros. The difference between a pro and average/poor player is fewer and smaller leaks; very rarely do they have no leaks at all. Anyway, I'm not going to discuss this further, since you obviously have the answers. You win.

 

[Cardcounter]

Which game is more profitable poker or blackjack for the A.P. player?
For this question there is no one right answer. It totally depends on the player for Phil Ivey, or Daniel Negranu, or Doyle Brunson it is poker. For me it is blackjack. The best blackjack players have a 1% advantage the best poker players probably have a 10% advantage after rakes and tipping. Poker probably has the highest advantage among expert players.