"Worst cards imaginable"
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Automatic Monkey
Banned
I don't agree with that. If you are a CG, you are a hazard when you have money and in a casino. What makes you a CG is not winning or losing but the psychological effect the gambling has on you. Otherwise you could teach CG's to be AP's and their problem would be solved, but that doesn't work. The only way a CG could become an AP (if this is even possible) is to totally divorce himself from the idea of risk being an enjoyable thing, and luck being what you are hoping for.rdorange said:None of us have a gambling problem as long as we have money.......
It is when we are OUT of money that we have a gambling problem:laugh:
Same as: Money is not the root of all evil, but the lack of money IS!
SilentBob420BMFJ
Banned
what is a CG? casino gangsta? are you an OCG or a BCG?.. lol.. seriously tho, if you dont enjoy winning at the casino, and enjoy the feeling you get when you win your multi split multi doubled hands, then that isnt right.. if 90% of the time your losing money and/or pissed off at the casino, then you probably have a problem.. i used to look at it as entertainment, but now i look at it as entertainment where i also make a few bucks.. (if i had a large bankroll, and was able to play at a high level) i would never look at it as "my boring job" and *sigh* "i have to go to work".. gambling should be fun, and risk is why it is fun, but risk can also be positive, because you know there is a chance you could lose your entire bankroll, but you also know chances are you will increase your bankroll, thus that is fun..Automatic Monkey said:
You couldn't teach really bad CG's to be AP's. They'd raise their bets regardless in negative counts just for the thrill of trying to beat the odds... which are very against them.Automatic Monkey said:
It's not about the math or the odds.. It's about the action. That is the mind of a CG and it's pretty hard to break that cycle.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
No I don't think of it as gambling, and it's not fun. Fun is what I do with the money. A casino is rarely an enjoyable environment for me, I'm not happy when my BR goes low, and the risk is the thing I try to minimize.SilentBob420BMFJ said:
zengrifter
Banned
Automatic Monkey said:
For me, fun is 'FLOW' -
Flow (psychology)
Flow is the mental state of operation in which the person is fully immersed in what he or she is doing, characterized by a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and success in the process of the activity. Proposed by psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, the concept has been widely referenced across a variety of fields.
Many other terms and idioms exist for this mental state: to be on the ball, in the zone, or in the groove.
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It is worth noting that only Csikszentmihalyi seems to have published suggestions for extrinsic applications of the Flow concept, such as design methods for playgrounds to elicit the Flow experience. Other practitioners of Csikszentmihalyi's Flow concept focus on intrinsic applications, such as spirituality, performance improvement or self-help.
Reinterpretations of Csikszentmihalyi's Flow process exist to improve performance in areas as diverse as business [1], piano improvisation, sport psychology [2], and standup comedy [3].
Religion and spirituality - Csikszentmihalyi may have been the first to describe this concept in Western psychology, but as he himself readily acknowledges he was most certainly not the first to quantify the concept of Flow or develop applications based on the concept.
Reinterpretations of Csikszentmihalyi's Flow process exist to improve performance in areas as diverse as business [1], piano improvisation, sport psychology [2], and standup comedy [3].
Religion and spirituality - Csikszentmihalyi may have been the first to describe this concept in Western psychology, but as he himself readily acknowledges he was most certainly not the first to quantify the concept of Flow or develop applications based on the concept.
For millennia, practitioners of Eastern religions such as Buddhism and Taoism have honed the discipline of overcoming the duality of self and object as a central feature of spiritual development. Eastern spiritual practitioners have developed a very thorough and holistic set of theories around overcoming duality of self and object, tested and refined through spiritual practice instead of the systematic rigor and controls of modern science.
The phrase "being at one with things" is a metaphor of Csikszentmihalyi's Flow concept. Practitioners of the varied schools of Zen Buddhism apply concepts similar to Flow to aid their mastery of art forms, including, in the case of Japanese Zen Buddhism, Aikido, Kendo and Ikebana.
The idea of overcoming duality of self and object is a key theme of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values by Robert Pirsig (1974). "When you're not dominated by feelings of separateness from what you're working on, then you can be said to 'care' about what you're doing. That is what caring really is: 'a feeling of identification with what one's doing.' When one has this feeling then you also see the inverse side of caring, quality itself."
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I was just curious how winning in a game where you see the dealer's hole card somehow, the way you put it maybe, changes the math of how well your card-counting has been doing. In other words, you wouldn't segregate the results, the more so since they are such 2 different games?Brock Windsor said:
In other words, no matter how much you won or lost while seeing the dealer's hole card, it still strikes me you are just as far down from card-counting as you were before you got to see the hole-card.
ihate17
Well-Known Member
I segregate results
ihate17
In my gaming log I list blackjack sessions (counting sessions) and hole card sessions as separate items as best I can. This is done not for tax purposes but for my own reference so I know I made approx. X counting and Y holecarding for the year and can figure my hourly take at each. The whole thing is only a guesstimate because many holecard sessions are not purely holecard sessions. Simple example: Dealer is flashing but relief dealer gives good pen so I play against both. At the end of the session I can say 2/3 of my time was holecarding and 1/3 was counting but I can not accurately account for my take and if I split it by those percentages I am most likely over-rating my counting take at the expense of the holecarding.Kasi said:
ihate17
I'm glad someone understood the point I was trying to makeihate17 said:
To take it one step further, since this particular example is almost a no-brainer, i.e. combining results from a non-counting game in which you enjoy a huge advantage playing only BS, with counting sessions in which you enjoy at best a small advantage, is why I think one should at least attempt to segregate results from different games with different rules and different spreads.
BjInfo member may have had...
...the worst cards imaginable!
I met another member of this message board this week. We went to the casino and played for several hours. He had the worst cards and luck I have seen in quite some time. We were playing DD and the cards were horrendous. The count got sooo bad, I sat out a few hands. The dealer didn't let me back in during mid shoe, but by the end of the deck, all the tens had to have been behind the cut card. He had more hands between 5 and 13 than some players see in a month!
...the worst cards imaginable!
I met another member of this message board this week. We went to the casino and played for several hours. He had the worst cards and luck I have seen in quite some time. We were playing DD and the cards were horrendous. The count got sooo bad, I sat out a few hands. The dealer didn't let me back in during mid shoe, but by the end of the deck, all the tens had to have been behind the cut card. He had more hands between 5 and 13 than some players see in a month!
ihate17
Well-Known Member
What I wish I could do
What would really be nice was if I played just as often but was able to spend equal times counting and holecarding (then I would no longer waste time counting). Of course holdcarding sessions land up being a small fraction of playing time.
Anyone know where *^*&^ is now working? Hope I can find him and that he is still dealing pitch.
ihate17
Kasi said:I'm glad someone understood the point I was trying to make
To take it one step further, since this particular example is almost a no-brainer, i.e. combining results from a non-counting game in which you enjoy a huge advantage playing only BS, with counting sessions in which you enjoy at best a small advantage, is why I think one should at least attempt to segregate results from different games with different rules and different spreads.
What would really be nice was if I played just as often but was able to spend equal times counting and holecarding (then I would no longer waste time counting). Of course holdcarding sessions land up being a small fraction of playing time.
Anyone know where *^*&^ is now working? Hope I can find him and that he is still dealing pitch.
ihate17
Basically the only truly successful holecarders that I know and know of, actually live in Vegas. Its very rare where you get holecard opportunities without constant scouting that will lead to enough playing time to be able to really enjoy the big advantage. Yes you may find a dealer here or there that might flash, but that is by far not the norm and is not be expected in your local indian casino. At least not enough to where you could take advantage of it on a regular basis. For the most part holecarding is a very monotanous process scouting out weak dealers with very little actual playing time compared to the leg work done beforehand. The percentage of dealers that can be hit is very small compared to the overall amount of dealers there are out there. Usually its best with pitch games so it does whittle it down a little on where to look. But basically, you will need to be able to play many casinos to actually see the huge advantage that holecarding offers. Just waiting for your favorite weak dealer is not the best way to attack this style of play, you must be able to play many or you will not last too long.
As I do not consider myself a holecarder this is just my opinion that I take away from talking with some of those that just might be the best. There are those that can at times spot a holecard, and there are those that are holecarders, there is a difference, and your bankroll will be able to tell which you are.
As I do not consider myself a holecarder this is just my opinion that I take away from talking with some of those that just might be the best. There are those that can at times spot a holecard, and there are those that are holecarders, there is a difference, and your bankroll will be able to tell which you are.
ihate17
Well-Known Member
How to get the hours in......when things work out
For over 20 years now I have kept a book on dealers. Things like holecarding, pen, mistake prone etc. Now dealers come, go, change shifts, and get retrained, so the list is constantly being changed. New names added, old names marked as moved (if I find out where) or location unknown if I do not know where they went.
I have no idea what amount of time I have put into my little book, but I know when I go to a location like Vegas or Reno, where the list includes a worthwhile amount of these dealers, I have a good shot at getting a decent amount of holecard time in. Another problem is you often will find the dealer you want working but not working pitch.
Still if I get in about 10% of my table time in holecarding situations, I feel it is enough to skew my counting numbers because of the difference in advantage. Just one of the things I do, break things down. I can tell you what I make per hour in what location for the past bunch of years, not that is is terrifically useful, just something I do.
Without my keeping track of dealers, my holecarding hours would be a lot less than 10%. There is one dealer who I have played against for nearly 20 years, a period that covers 4 different casinos and a year or two where he was out of the business.
ihate17
For over 20 years now I have kept a book on dealers. Things like holecarding, pen, mistake prone etc. Now dealers come, go, change shifts, and get retrained, so the list is constantly being changed. New names added, old names marked as moved (if I find out where) or location unknown if I do not know where they went.
I have no idea what amount of time I have put into my little book, but I know when I go to a location like Vegas or Reno, where the list includes a worthwhile amount of these dealers, I have a good shot at getting a decent amount of holecard time in. Another problem is you often will find the dealer you want working but not working pitch.
Still if I get in about 10% of my table time in holecarding situations, I feel it is enough to skew my counting numbers because of the difference in advantage. Just one of the things I do, break things down. I can tell you what I make per hour in what location for the past bunch of years, not that is is terrifically useful, just something I do.
Without my keeping track of dealers, my holecarding hours would be a lot less than 10%. There is one dealer who I have played against for nearly 20 years, a period that covers 4 different casinos and a year or two where he was out of the business.
ihate17
Funny but the casinos keep a profile record of their dealers too. That way weak dealers don't last too long. There is no real way a weak dealer lasts for years without retraining or dismissal. Furthermore, just like counters profiles get shared with other casinos so does a dealers. So if a weak flashing dealer applies to another casino for a job after being let go, its damn hard for them to get a job, especially dealing cards. If you don't know already then I'll let you in on a professional secret, casinos are more paranoid about crooked employees and weak dealers then they are advantage players. Bad employees DO cost the casinos money, APs have a very small chance to. Thats why most newbies think heat is directed at the player when most times its directed at the dealer. Maybe you do keep a book on dealers, but I would really doubt its worth a damn. If you find a weak dealer, I'd bet if you don't play them until they're gone, you won't find them again. That my friend is just the plain damn truth. This only accounts for holecarding, not counting. Your notes on good dealers for counting may stand up for longer, but who really cares if the casinos don't.ihate17 said:
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Automatic Monkey
Banned
That's not true. There are several different cases of holecarding and they mostly all have a higher advantage than counting, but they don't all have a higher win rate. Part-timers cannot go out on a BJ mission and expect to find a flasher every time, but that doesn't mean we don't know what to do when we find one. All AP's should know holecard/nextcard theory and strategy.MAZ said:
Also once you leave Las Vegas there are table limit problems. If you are stuck with $200 or $300 table limits it's possible to make a decent wage with a counting game but flashers are rare enough where you can't afford to wait all day or two to find one and what, make $300 bets? A part-timer can't even guarantee his EV will cover trip expenses with that kind of approach.
This is just wrong. Take a poll here, I gaurantee there are very few that have any knowledge of holecard strategy. You are right that there is very few opportunities to actually take advantage of holecarding outside of Vegas. Proving the point that since basically nobody that posts here lives in Vegas, basically nobody here is holecarding to any degree that it would matter. And stop with I go to Vegas every few months. It doesn't matter, its not enough to be successful at holecarding. I've already explained how weak dealers are a revolving door, you will not find the same ones around for years or even months most times. Any who claims to is just going on theory not truth. Get it, got it, good.Automatic Monkey said: