Beyound Counting?????

[Automatic Monkey]

You advocate using wheelchairs when you have no legitamate medical reason for doing so.
You know i've watched a couple of people who i know to be pros players post at different times on this board - no i'm not talking about Bojack this time - they post with unfailing simplicity and common sense especially when it comes to their specific subject area, yet you always come along to try and shoot holes with your "actually" comments. It's "actually" laughable that you can't see common sense even when it's pointed out.

RJT.

Actually, I'm not sure what "common sense" means in the context of AP. People with common sense stay away from casinos.

All of the REAL PROS in gaming use creative and risky tactics, holecarding not being the least of them- yes, you can be arrested simply for holecarding and a few AP's have. It's a risk of the profession. I myself have used marked cards, not marking the cards myself, but playing to the marks left (intentionally or unintentionally, I have no idea) by others. Is that illegal? Probably. Do I care? Actually no, just give me the money.

Whether or not wheelchair is a viable tactic is a subject for debate. But I still like the idea of having a pet girl on a leash sitting on the floor and barking or mewing the value of the hole card to me.

 

[zengrifter]

Whether or not wheelchair is a viable tactic is a subject for debate.

Here, from ADVANTAGE PLAY AND COMMERCIAL CASINOS (Archive copy)

Legality

As scienter or fraudulent intent is an element of cheating,[358] should the law criminalize activity where the player simply acts upon information exposed where he or she did not enter the casino with intent to fraudulently obtain and act on this information? The latter is the case where a typical player sitting at the table learns of the value of the dealer's hole card because the dealer makes an error in exposing the card.

Hole-carding professionals and teams are much different than where a player, without fraudulent intent, learns the dealer's hole card because of “a dealer's unintended revelation of his cards.”[359] Here, cheaters play the game with the intent of learning the dealer's hole card by undertaking some act to either learn the hole card where the dealer is properly protecting it or by using the hold card techniques that accentuate poor dealing. Note, for example, this quote from an interview with a hole carder:

Another cute ruse, I used a few times in the `80s, is posing as a wheelchair-ridden muscular-dystrophy victim during the week of the Jerry Lewis telethon. I'd roll up to the table, eyes level with the felt. Using spasmodic movements and twisted posture I announce in a strained voice that I was the 1964 Jerry Lewis Muscular Dystrophy “poster boy.” Of course the primary reason for the act was to have my eyes level with the felt to be able to see the dealer's hole card flashing with each round.[360]

Therefore, attempting to acquire knowledge not typically or readily available to other players that provides an advantage in determining or predicting what was intended to be a random event should be illegal and unenforceable if the player uses any artificial or deliberate means to gain the advantage such as mirrors or spotters.

An argument can be made that a typical player that learns of the dealer's hole card because of a dealer's error is no less of a thief than a person who cashes a $100 check and knowingly keeps the extra $900 when the bank clerk mistakes it for $1000. In theory, the player that uses such information forms a fraudulent intent when he or she uses the information to gain the advantage created by the mistake. Moreover, using a person's mistake to that person or his or her employer's disadvantage is unethical.

-- [360] Barfarkel, The Zengrifter Interview, at http://www.cardcounter.com/ interview_Zen_Grifter.htm (last visited May 4, 2005).​

 

[RJT]

Is that illegal? Probably. Do I care? Actually no, just give me the money.

And that's your problem. Legitamate advantage players, do it legitimately, without crossing the line into cheating. Yes some of the moves carry the risk of arrest, but ultimately they are all legal.
This shouldn't be a hustle and if that's what you see it as, that's where your problem lies.
What you talk about is certainly in the darker side of grey and would not be used by a knowledgeable player because they value their freedom and the opportunity to find another legitimately weak dealer more than using some cheap and easily see through trick.

RJT

 

[moo321]

And that's your problem. Legitamate advantage players, do it legitimately, without crossing the line into cheating. Yes some of the moves carry the risk of arrest, but ultimately they are all legal.
This shouldn't be a hustle and if that's what you see it as, that's where your problem lies.
What you talk about is certainly in the darker side of grey and would not be used by a knowledgeable player because they value their freedom and the opportunity to find another legitimately weak dealer more than using some cheap and easily see through trick.

RJT

Using markers that someone else put into play isn't illegal. I'd use them if I spotted them, as long as I didn't notice anyone else at the table who seemed to be using them as well. Wouldn't want to get lumped in with the cheats.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

And that's your problem. Legitamate advantage players, do it legitimately, without crossing the line into cheating. Yes some of the moves carry the risk of arrest, but ultimately they are all legal....

Welcome to Nevada. The casinos make the rules and if you are arrested at a gaming table it is unlikely you will be treated fairly in the courtroom. Ultimately, all of my moves are legal too. A judge who's salary comes from casino revenues isn't going to see it that way.

Yes, the finer points of AP are a hustle and most experienced players do, have done, or will do something that treads the line of legality, be it using false ID, abusing coupons, working with a partner, manipulating a dealer and even those who rathole cheques run the risk of having their cheques not honored. All the online players here violate or grossly circumvent US laws. Sorry to disappoint you, but we are no Boy Scouts here, like any other worker we're no cleaner than the environment we work in.

 

[RJT]

Using markers that someone else put into play isn't illegal. I'd use them if I spotted them, as long as I didn't notice anyone else at the table who seemed to be using them as well. Wouldn't want to get lumped in with the cheats.

And how do you prove you were not involved in putting them there? You have the motive, you are using the marks on the cards to beat the game - marks that the casino did not put there. Even if someone else has put them there, it would then be your responsibility to prove that you were not collaborating with them - a team mate comes in marks the cards then leaves, you then follow in and play the marked cards. Any judge or jury in their right minds certainly isn't going to buy the "i just came across this pack of cards that [insert name here] marked earlier today. i don't know him and did not realize that what he'd done was illegal".
If it's a card defect that we are talking about, fair play. If one of the Aces has been nicked during play, fair enough. If a cheater has come in and marked the deck, using the marks is tantamount to cheating and would almost certainly be considered as when you get prosecuted.
This is off the point though. I'm sorry but the great secret of hole carding has not been revealed here - getting a lowered seat is just another cheap scammers way of trying to avoid the legwork. It's too risky and frankly transparent. Any even vaguely knowledgeable pit critter would see though it in a second if their table started hemorrhaging money, the way it should if you are playing correctly.

RJT.

 

[RJT]

Welcome to Nevada. The casinos make the rules and if you are arrested at a gaming table it is unlikely you will be treated fairly in the courtroom. Ultimately, all of my moves are legal too. A judge who's salary comes from casino revenues isn't going to see it that way.

Yes, the finer points of AP are a hustle and most experienced players do, have done, or will do something that treads the line of legality, be it using false ID, abusing coupons, working with a partner, manipulating a dealer and even those who rathole cheques run the risk of having their cheques not honored. All the online players here violate or grossly circumvent US laws. Sorry to disappoint you, but we are no Boy Scouts here, like any other worker we're no cleaner than the environment we work in.

There's a difference between playing a game that's legal, but carries risk with it - hell even card counting carries risks - and playing an illegal game cause "well, hell i wouldn't get treated fairly even if i was doing something legal".
Using a false ID is legal as long as it's not used for government documentation, the terms and conditions of coupons are up to casinos to enforce - not courts, team play has been shown to be legal (at least in blackjack), it is the casinos responsibility to train their dealer's so they can't be unintentionally manipulated and a person has the right to do pretty much whatever they like with their own chips up until the point where they exchange them for money. You don't see casinos actively pursuing cases against people doing the above for good reason - even in Nevada their chances of winning are slim. When a casino pursues a cheating charge it's because they have fairly solid evidence to support their accusation.

RJT.

 

[21forme]

And how do you prove you were not involved in putting them there?
RJT.

It's the other way around in America, innocent until proven guilty (unless the Patriot Act is involved.) This would be a very simple case:

Defense lawyer to casino representative: You have surveillance tapes of all tables, correct?
Casino: Correct.
Defense lawyer: Show us where on your video the defendant has marked the cards.
Casino: Uhh...
Judge: Case dismissed for lack of evidence.

 

[RJT]

It's the other way around in America, innocent until proven guilty (unless the Patriot Act is involved.) This would be a very simple case:

Defense lawyer to casino representative: You have surveillance tapes of all tables, correct?
Casino: Correct.
Defense lawyer: Show us where on your video the defendant has marked the cards.
Casino: Uhh...
Judge: Case dismissed for lack of evidence.

A creative lawer could easily make a case out of this - especially considering that he was using knowledge of the marks. Combine this with a legal system that is frankly heavily casino bias and you'd still be looking at a harrowing time. When you can legitimately gain this advantage with legal methods i have complete contempt for anyone who has to sink to even questionable tactics.
That and the term 'reasonable doubt' springs to mind - even if you were proved innocent due to a 'reasonable doubt' that you might not have been involved and stumbled on a card marking scheme by mistake you can bet your bottom dollar that you ain't going to be welcome in many gambling venues from that point on. AP's ain't liked by casinos, but cheats take it to a whole new level. Why would you even take the risk?
Oh and on that point, video isn't a very good medium for catching many cheating scams. Pro crews often uses moves that are specifically designed to give a very poor angle to cameras above the table or to use Steve Forte's definition 'sky moves'. In these cases eye witness accounts are going to be more valuable than video and all it takes are a few over zelous casino employees.

RJT.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

There's a difference between playing a game that's legal, but carries risk with it - hell even card counting carries risks - and playing an illegal game cause "well, hell i wouldn't get treated fairly even if i was doing something legal".
Using a false ID is legal as long as it's not used for government documentation,

No, even possessing false ID is illegal in most cases.

the terms and conditions of coupons are up to casinos to enforce - not courts,

No, intentionally using a coupon contrary to it's printed terms and conditions is fraud, and many of us have done it.

team play has been shown to be legal (at least in blackjack),

No, use of secret signals has been found to be illegal for some types of play. The case law is not clear on this but you can be certain it will be interpreted to your disadvantage in Nevada.

it is the casinos responsibility to train their dealer's so they can't be unintentionally manipulated

No, if a dealer allows himself to be manipulated both you and the dealer can and will be arrested for cheating.

and a person has the right to do pretty much whatever they like with their own chips up until the point where they exchange them for money.

No, use of cheques as a medium of exchange or for any purpose other than gaming violates Federal law, violates Nevada Gaming policy and the burden of proof is on a bearer that he personally bought or won the cheques in a game. If you can't they will take your cheques and tell you to go to Helen Waite.

You don't see casinos actively pursuing cases against people doing the above for good reason - even in Nevada their chances of winning are slim. When a casino pursues a cheating charge it's because they have fairly solid evidence to support their accusation.

RJT.

Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about, and it is obvious you have never played in this environment. For a good start to your AP education, read LVBear's columns (The Bear Growls, etc.) and you will begin to get an idea of what corrupt, criminal types are making and enforcing the rules in the world of US gaming. They have and they will continue to punish AP's with false arrests, confiscation of cheques and other criminal behavior.

 

[InPlay]

It's like I have always said if you are not dirty and you are squeaky clean you are probally a loser.

 

[moo321]

And how do you prove you were not involved in putting them there? You have the motive, you are using the marks on the cards to beat the game - marks that the casino did not put there. Even if someone else has put them there, it would then be your responsibility to prove that you were not collaborating with them - a team mate comes in marks the cards then leaves, you then follow in and play the marked cards. Any judge or jury in their right minds certainly isn't going to buy the "i just came across this pack of cards that [insert name here] marked earlier today. i don't know him and did not realize that what he'd done was illegal".
If it's a card defect that we are talking about, fair play. If one of the Aces has been nicked during play, fair enough. If a cheater has come in and marked the deck, using the marks is tantamount to cheating and would almost certainly be considered as when you get prosecuted.
This is off the point though. I'm sorry but the great secret of hole carding has not been revealed here - getting a lowered seat is just another cheap scammers way of trying to avoid the legwork. It's too risky and frankly transparent. Any even vaguely knowledgeable pit critter would see though it in a second if their table started hemorrhaging money, the way it should if you are playing correctly.

RJT.

I don't have to prove I didn't put them into play. If I go to trial, they have to prove, falsely 1. I was reading the marked cards, and I don't just play that way normally 2. I marked the cards that were being used. That's a hell of a case to prove with tape that shows I didn't mark the cards.

It also depends on the type of markers; if they're nail marked, it's a little easier for them to argue, but often times you need longer fingernails to pull this off. If it was a printed marked deck or someone sanded or inked the deck, they'd need physical evidence which wouldn't be there, so I'd be scott free without ink or tape of me mucking cards in (one reason I always wear short sleeves when I'm playing any card game where I touch the cards).

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I don't have to prove I didn't put them into play. If I go to trial, they have to prove, falsely 1. I was reading the marked cards, and I don't just play that way normally 2. I marked the cards that were being used. That's a hell of a case to prove with tape that shows I didn't mark the cards.

It also depends on the type of markers; if they're nail marked, it's a little easier for them to argue, but often times you need longer fingernails to pull this off. If it was a printed marked deck or someone sanded or inked the deck, they'd need physical evidence which wouldn't be there, so I'd be scott free without ink or tape of me mucking cards in (one reason I always wear short sleeves when I'm playing any card game where I touch the cards).

If someone else marked the cards and then left them for you to play, they'd have a case if they could prove that you and the card marker were working together. Also, even if they saw you marking the cards, they'd have to demonstrate that you were playing the marks to an advantage to have a legitimate claim of cheating. Cards get marked all the time in play. People eat and have food on their hands when they're playing and I've even seen nose-pick on cards. Kind of hard to prosecute someone for just being filthy.

Now at the same time, they don't have to convict you to make your life miserable. They can hold you in a jail, require an outrageous bail, force you to hire a lawyer at your own expense and if they lose the case you get to go home, a few months late and a few thousand short. It's a lot like these women who falsely accuse men of rape; they never end up paying a price even when it is found to be false.

 

[RJT]

No, even possessing false ID is illegal in most cases.



No, intentionally using a coupon contrary to it's printed terms and conditions is fraud, and many of us have done it.



No, use of secret signals has been found to be illegal for some types of play. The case law is not clear on this but you can be certain it will be interpreted to your disadvantage in Nevada.


No, if a dealer allows himself to be manipulated both you and the dealer can and will be arrested for cheating.



No, use of cheques as a medium of exchange or for any purpose other than gaming violates Federal law, violates Nevada Gaming policy and the burden of proof is on a bearer that he personally bought or won the cheques in a game. If you can't they will take your cheques and tell you to go to Helen Waite.




Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about, and it is obvious you have never played in this environment. For a good start to your AP education, read LVBear's columns (The Bear Growls, etc.) and you will begin to get an idea of what corrupt, criminal types are making and enforcing the rules in the world of US gaming. They have and they will continue to punish AP's with false arrests, confiscation of cheques and other criminal behavior.

I'm only going to argue one of these points right now as that's all i've got the time or willpower to do, but i hope this serves to show what little you know of the laws in your own country AM.

'Blackjack and the Law' I Nelson Rose and Robert A. Loeb

"Despite all of these restraints, the use of an alias is still proper when not for fraudulent purposes.......To my knowledge, the laws in all states require the intent to actually defraud in order to prove a a felony"

RJT.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I'm only going to argue one of these points right now as that's all i've got the time or willpower to do, but i hope this serves to show what little you know of the laws in your own country AM.

'Blackjack and the Law' I Nelson Rose and Robert A. Loeb

"Despite all of these restraints, the use of an alias is still proper when not for fraudulent purposes.......To my knowledge, the laws in all states require the intent to actually defraud in order to prove a a felony"

RJT.

The use of an alias, or the use of a falsified identification document?

 

[sagefr0g]

I'm only going to argue one of these points right now as that's all i've got the time or willpower to do, but i hope this serves to show what little you know of the laws in your own country AM.

'Blackjack and the Law' I Nelson Rose and Robert A. Loeb

"Despite all of these restraints, the use of an alias is still proper when not for fraudulent purposes.......To my knowledge, the laws in all states require the intent to actually defraud in order to prove a a felony"

RJT.

two points here are not clear.....
there are legal methods for obtaining and using an alias... i think....
and felony is just one tier of legal implication for a law breaker there are other degree's of legal punishment.

 

[QFIT]

There's certainly nothing wrong with having an alias. I have a bank account under the alias QFIT, get mail and cash checks under that alias and receive credit card solicitations on a weekly basis under that name. Now if I rang up credit card bills under the name and then claimed it wasn't me - that's a crime.

 

[RJT]

The use of an alias, or the use of a falsified identification document?

"If you use a credit card under a different name but pay your bills on the card, no one is actually being defrauded, and it is unlikely that the credit card company will perceive that it is being defrauded. Thus, merely having a credit card under an alias is probably not fraudulent, unless it is used with the intent to evade payment of the bills."

False ID is a tricky matter, but as far as i'm aware - and i have done a deal of looking into this - as long as it is not a government issue ID there's nothing illegal about using it in a casino.
If you were to falsify a driving licence - that would be illegal. If you were carrying say a fake Microsoft staff card with your photo and a different name on it, as long as you weren't using it to fill out government documents (like CTRs) you've broken no laws. Merely using an alias in a casino with credit cards and other forms of non-government issue false ID to back it up is perfectly legal. You just have to be careful not to go over the CTR limit.

RJT.

 

[RJT]

No, if a dealer allows himself to be manipulated both you and the dealer can and will be arrested for cheating.

Reading tells/manipulating the dealer to give of unconscious signals-

"It is legal to read tells because the player merely uses information provided to him, albeit unwittingly, by the house"

RJT.

 

[RJT]

No, use of secret signals has been found to be illegal for some types of play. The case law is not clear on this but you can be certain it will be interpreted to your disadvantage in Nevada.

"If it is legal to verbally discuss the proper move on a given hand - and that is done on every blackjack table in the world, with even dealers and pit bosses involved in the discussion - it has to be legal to make the same communication in a non-verbal mannar."

Also to quote Steve Forte's 'Casino Games Protection'

"The legality of many strategies are unclear in the minds of many gamers, when, in fact, a clear precedent has been set for card counting, advantage play, signalling and electronic devices"

The law regarding the issue of signalling is quite clear and is totally dependant on if you are signalling information that would be avalible to any player at the table. Signalling information that can only be gained off table is illegal - as is the use of this information.

RJT.