El Cortez Suspected ASM Cheating

[Dummy]

I was in Reno about 10 years ago and played at the El Dorado. They pulled some underhanded stuff against our team after we had stopped playing and checked out because we won a boatload. The El Dorado was scum. I don't know about any changes in ownership since then. Maybe things have improved.

 

[Tater]

I was in Reno about 10 years ago and played at the El Dorado. They pulled some underhanded stuff against our team after we had stopped playing and checked out because we won a boatload. The El Dorado was scum. I don't know about any changes in ownership since then. Maybe things have improved.

O yes. Considerably. They were purchased along with Silver Legacy and Circus about 2 years ago. Hell, I used to be about half scared to go in there. But it's all good now.

 

[bjo32]

If they use MindPlay to track the current odds of the game and shuffle early only when the casino is at a disadvantage then MindPlay is being used a cheating devise. If they paid a guy to do the same without a devise it would not be cheating. What makes it cheating is that the devise is used to determine the odds and the casino changes the game according to what the devise says. I don't care how slow you are that is the very definition of using a device to change the odds of the game. If you used your mind to bet bigger when you have an advantage it isn't cheating. If you used a devise to tell you the odds so you could adjust your bets accordingly or only play when you have an advantage everyone would agree you would be cheating. It is the same thing.

As for the other misinformation you posted about no lawsuit being filed claiming cheating, look at this link:

https://lasvegassun.com/news/2004/oct/19/gambler-files-lawsuit-over-card-counting-system/

A quote that sum up the article and the lawsuit:

The suit was filed by Las Vegas attorney Robert Nersesian, who has handled several cases for gamblers against casinos.

The suit alleges theft, conspiracy and fraud in the Eldorado's use of the MindPlay system. The filing says the Eldorado used the system to determine when the outcome of the game would be unfavorable to the casino and then reshuffled the deck.

According to the suit, "the MindPlay device had informed the casino that the deck or shoe had become favorable to the plaintiff and unfavorable for the Eldorado."

"The shuffle decision was directed and decided by the MindPlay device while the plaintiff was playing," the suit says. "In this sense, Eldorado and its dealer used a computer device to assist in projecting the outcome of the game, in keeping track of the cards played and in analyzing the probability of the occurrences of an event relating to the game."

In case you are too slow to know this Nersesian is using the exact terminology that legally defines a cheating devise in Las Vegas. In other words he is saying the way MindPlay was used was as a cheating devise.

NRS 465.075  Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.  It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:

1.  Projects the outcome of the game;

2.  Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;

3.  Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or

4.  Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,

I guess Nersesian didn't spell it out well enough for those that are really slow but studied everything about the Mindplay incident. Did I say it slow enough for you? You said you were so well versed on this but missed the most important part of the case.

Dummy, did you spend any time reading my post before you made your post? The article you posted is the one I had already read and it basically said what I had already said in my post. I referred to this lawsuit. I said a lawsuit was brought against a casino using MindPlay to shuffle up when the casino knew they had an advantage. No one disagrees with this. All parties (MindPlay, casinos and players) agree on this. MindPlay has the capabilities to do this. This is not what MindPlay was intended to do, but a casino can use it in this way.

This is NOT what ASMs were developed to do. There has been no prove that an ASM is even capable of doing this, if the casino wanted an ASM to do this. That’s the difference, and that’s a huge difference between what happened with MindPlay and what people are alleging with ASMs. APs and ploppies are accusing casinos of using ASMs as cheating devices. This has been going on since ASMs first came out. Even though these allegations have been going on forever, no one has ever brought a lawsuit against a casino. With so many people believing this is occurring, why hasn’t it been proven, why hasn’t someone sued a casino, why hasn’t someone sued an ASM maker; all we get is someone posting that they were at some casino using an ASM where they saw more clumping then they think they should have seen. If this is occurring, it could be for many reasons, with randomness being one. With randomness, one gets clumping.

If a caisno wanted to cheat with one of these ASMs a better way would to pull out some tens and aces when the cards are put into the ASM. Basically shuffle most of the cards but keep a couple high ones hidden in a secret compartment within the ASM. No one would ever know this occurred and this would give the casino a huge advantage. I wonder why no one has thought of this before. This actually makes more sense. There could be a button on the side of the ASM that is pressed to insert these cards back into the shoe when the dealer wanted to. These cards could be removed whenever the casino thought an AP was at the table, and they could also be easily reinserted.

The bottom line is I get it...there are many ways a casino in theory could cheat with an ASM. The possibilities are endless. It’s not hard to see why the conspiracy nuts are all over this. It does takes a little faith to believe the cards are really being randomly shuffled once they are put into the little black box, and then taken out a little while latter. Who knows what happened during this time. Maybe nothing.

This brings up another point. I wonder if shufflemaster painted all their ASMs a different color than black if this would help. I think a lighter color like green or some pastel might give the conspiracy nuts more comfort there is no hanky panky going on when cards are put in an ASM. Part of the problem might be putting the cards in a black box. The conspercy nuts also believe the government is spying on us in black helicopters.

You know what the funniest part of this story is? There are actually APs believing they are exploiting ASMs that casinos are operating in “beast mode”. You can’t make this stuff up if you tried.

 

[Dummy]

Nice try at deflecting your very blatant mistakes about the MindPlay incident. Below is what you said. If you don't thinking using a device to track the card, in order to analyze probabilities of occurrence to predict the outcome of the game and shuffle based on that information only when the casino is at a disadvantage does not change the odds of the game then you don't understand anything.

I can see you’re a little slow Dummy. Btw, you picked a good handle. I’ll run this by you very slowly again since I can tell you aren’t getting it. MindPlay is not a device used to change the odds. No lawsuit or allegation has ever claimed that.

 

[Dummy]

If a caisno wanted to cheat with one of these ASMs a better way would to pull out some tens and aces when the cards are put into the ASM. Basically shuffle most of the cards but keep a couple high ones hidden in a secret compartment within the ASM. No one would ever know this occurred and this would give the casino a huge advantage.

I don't know why idiots try to post ways for casinos to get away with cheating. Nothing good can come of it. If this ASM crap is true, the proliferation of it was probably due to one big mouth that kept posting for years that casinos can get away with it and what card arrangements give the casino the biggest advantage based on his own research. If he actually believed it then that would make no sense. I took it as an attempt to protect AP honeyholes and did quite well at the casinos the few that seemed to believed this crap pointed at as offenders. Most had really good games so the theory seemed to hold up. But some didn't.

I still keep an open mind. I look for the same clumping stated and see it more on hand shuffle games than ASMs. My samples on all of this are ridiculously small. Hand shuffles are hard to find and the suspect casinos are too far to be a part of my normal rotation. I do frequent one of them often and it is one of my best casinos for winning despite having a mix of good pen and poor conditions. The sample size there is still small but I don't see anything suspicious.

 

[Tater]

Dummy; You are the shoe expert. There are a couple of guys that seem to be able to do amazing counts within the confines of a shoe count.

Perhaps the machine took away the old strategy of conventional counts for shoes? I wouldn't know. You'd have to ask those guys.

But I've always wondered why the need to machine shuffle single and double deck cards? It seems less productive in terms of time.

As for how the cards come out? How does this little green man inside the machine know what I'm going to do before I even know?

I might go two hands off the top, then drop to one hand. Next deck, I might go one hand of the top, then two hands. Or I might yank him out by the throat and stop on him like a mouse.

It still comes down to deck composition. This requires patience, discipline, and deep pen. But I can see where those who employ a conventional count are seeing blinkling lights and little green men. The TC doesn't work? Two words. Proper deck composition! Whups, make that THREE. Ha! Get it ?

 

[bjo32]

Nice try at deflecting your very blatant mistakes about the MindPlay incident. Below is what you said. If you don't thinking using a device to track the card, in order to analyze probabilities of occurrence to predict the outcome of the game and shuffle based on that information only when the casino is at a disadvantage does not change the odds of the game then you don't understand anything.

Dummy, have you read any of my posts before you reply? You like to take one sentence out of one post to make your point. I said I get why this is wrong. Go back and read my first post on this. I get why using MindPlay in this way is using a device to predict the outcome of the game, which the courts have said is illegal. No one is disputing this. This has nothing to do with the current ASM allegations. That is the point of this discussion. All we know is ASMs have the potential to cheat. I don't think anybody would disagree with that. I can think of many, many ways an ASM could be used to cheat. I can think of many, many ways a dealer can cheat. Have you ever heard of dealing seconds? I can think of many, many ways a casino can cheat.

My point is all we have is a bunch of APs and ploppies who have constantly accused the casinos of using ASMs to cheat. What I want is some proof. That's all. I will believe anything if I see some proof. I'm tired of reading about all this idle speculation on various bj sites on how a casino might be able to use an ASM to cheat. What surprised me is how many reputable people within the blackjack community commented on this. This is partially what gave these new allegations legs. You don't see any serious scientist commenting on the validity of the latest nutball saying they saw Big Foot.

As far as the downfall of MindPlay, it had much more to do with its costs and it didn't work well then with this one lawsuit. MindPlay never got into wide spread use by casinos. Most people haven't heard of it and it was around for 5 years. Look it up. It's misleading people to say this one lawsuit played much of a role in MindPlays downfall. The technology didn't work well and it was very expensive.

Btw, when I read some of your posts, I think you and I are more aligned on this that you think. I feel like we're somewhat arguing but really saying the same thing.

 

[Dummy]

Go back and read my first post on this. I get why using MindPlay in this way is using a device to predict the outcome of the game, which the courts have said is illegal. No one is disputing this. This has nothing to do with the current ASM allegations.

Try reading my posts. I never said anything about the current ASM situation. I only replied to your posting of misinformation on the MindPlay suit

I can think of many, many ways an ASM could be used to cheat.

Please don't post any specifics on this. I doubt it is anything a good AP couldn't think up. But it might be something the idiots that work for casinos couldn't think up. With that thought in mind don't post things we all know that only serve to educate these idiots.

My point is all we have is a bunch of APs and ploppies who have constantly accused the casinos of using ASMs to cheat. What I want is some proof. That's all. I will believe anything if I see some proof.

If Kj says he has one of the models of ASM in question and has used it to prove this, that is good enough for me. Others may think him to not be credible. That is their right.

You don't see any serious scientist commenting on the validity of the latest nutball saying they saw Big Foot.

The mountain gorilla was Africa's Bigfoot and believed to be a myth until 1902. Many mythical and extinct creatures have proved to actually exist or still exist. I spent a ton of time in the wilderness and never saw a Bigfoot or any tracks or sign I thought could be a bigfoot, but I don't frequent areas thought to be Bigfoot territory. There is no absolute proof of Bigfoot's existence,

Dummy, have you read any of my posts before you reply? You like to take one sentence out of one post to make your point. I said I get why this is wrong. Go back and read my first post on this. I get why using MindPlay in this way is using a device to predict the outcome of the game, which the courts have said is illegal. No one is disputing this. This has nothing to do with the current ASM allegations. That is the point of this discussion. All we know is ASMs have the potential to cheat. I don't think anybody would disagree with that. I can think of many, many ways an ASM could be used to cheat. I can think of many, many ways a dealer can cheat. Have you ever heard of dealing seconds? I can think of many, many ways a casino can cheat.

My point is all we have is a bunch of APs and ploppies who have constantly accused the casinos of using ASMs to cheat. What I want is some proof. That's all. I will believe anything if I see some proof. I'm tired of reading about all this idle speculation on various bj sites on how a casino might be able to use an ASM to cheat. What surprised me is how many reputable people within the blackjack community commented on this. This is partially what gave these new allegations legs. You don't see any serious scientist commenting on the validity of the latest nutball saying they saw Big Foot.

As far as the downfall of MindPlay, it had much more to do with its costs and it didn't work well then with this one lawsuit. MindPlay never got into wide spread use by casinos. Most people haven't heard of it and it was around for 5 years. Look it up. It's misleading people to say this one lawsuit played much of a role in MindPlays downfall. The technology didn't work well and it was very expensive.but there is a lot of credible evidence that they at least used to exist. I will wait for proof but won't call anyone that thinks they saw one a quack. If someone I trusted said they saw one that would be good enough for me. Nobody I have talked to sounded certain about what they saw.

As far as the downfall of MindPlay, it had much more to do with its costs and it didn't work well then with this one lawsuit. MindPlay never got into wide spread use by casinos.

I am well versed in Misplay case. Obviously from your erroneous misinformation that started this intercourse, I know more than you do. Why it failed is not at issue here. I just called you on erroneous statements since you tried to speak with expertise that your statements easily betray as false.

Dummy, have you read any of my posts before you reply? You like to take one sentence out of one post to make your point. I said I get why this is wrong. Go back and read my first post on this. I get why using MindPlay in this way is using a device to predict the outcome of the game, which the courts have said is illegal. No one is disputing this. This has nothing to do with the current ASM allegations. That is the point of this discussion. All we know is ASMs have the potential to cheat. I don't think anybody would disagree with that. I can think of many, many ways an ASM could be used to cheat. I can think of many, many ways a dealer can cheat. Have you ever heard of dealing seconds? I can think of many, many ways a casino can cheat.

My point is all we have is a bunch of APs and ploppies who have constantly accused the casinos of using ASMs to cheat. What I want is some proof. That's all. I will believe anything if I see some proof. I'm tired of reading about all this idle speculation on various bj sites on how a casino might be able to use an ASM to cheat. What surprised me is how many reputable people within the blackjack community commented on this. This is partially what gave these new allegations legs. You don't see any serious scientist commenting on the validity of the latest nutball saying they saw Big Foot.

As far as the downfall of MindPlay, it had much more to do with its costs and it didn't work well then with this one lawsuit. MindPlay never got into wide spread use by casinos. Most people haven't heard of it and it was around for 5 years. Look it up. It's misleading people to say this one lawsuit played much of a role in MindPlays downfall. The technology didn't work well and it was very expensive.

Btw, when I read some of your posts, I think you and I are more aligned on this that you think. I feel like we're somewhat arguing but really saying the same thing.

Perhaps. I remain somewhat skeptical but KJ is credible in my book and has me taking it more seriously.

 

[KewlJ]

As far as the downfall of MindPlay, it had much more to do with its costs and it didn't work well then with this one lawsuit. MindPlay never got into wide spread use by casinos. Most people haven't heard of it and it was around for 5 years. Look it up. It's misleading people to say this one lawsuit played much of a role in MindPlays downfall. The technology didn't work well and it was very expensive.

bjo32, this is just not true. The downfall of Mindplay had everything to do with the delay imposed on them. I sort of held off responding for a day, hoping someone, maybe the likes of an Al Rogers would weigh in, but he hasn't.

It is true the technology was costly, but it would have spread, had that delay not been imposed. THAT ruling was the end of Mindplay. Oh it didn't die right then and there, it took a while, a couple years I guess. But THAT ruling sealed it's fate. Remember that line from Titanic after the ship had hit the iceberg, something like "No matter what we do, from this point on, the Titanic WILL sink." The fate was sealed with that ruling. It just took a little while for Mindplay to officially "sink".

The other thing is that I think you misunderstand my comparison to Mindplay. The comparison isn't that the technologies are all that similar or work the same way. The comparison is that the casino industry accepted a technology that they knew was illegal, everyone with half a brain knew was illegal. They were using a devise to alter the outcome of the game. THAT is not that complicated nor hard to understand. THAT was my comparison.

And my last point: You point out that Mindplay had been around for 5 years. So it's spreading was slow. In large part because it was being challenged. And that was part of my intention bringing this to light. Let's nip this and all future attempts, in the bud....BEFORE it gets to spreading. ​

 

[Tater]

Dummy, please correct me if I'm wrong. But we are talking a chip in a machine? KJ is starting to make it sound like the magic bullett in JFK.

KJ. Do you go into someone else's house and start telling them what furniture they need to buy so your narrow ass has a comfy place to sit? Well, that is the message you are sending to these casinos. You've now become bigger than the game? So you're going to nip them in the bud, and make them promise to never again do their dirty deeds. Okay, so when all the DD games in Vegas become 6.5 and 50% pen, are you going to be the one to raise your hand and say "yes APs, I saved you!"

Dummy, one last question. How long do you think it would take a Tarzan or T3, or even a Dummy to expose these machines in a DOUBLE DECK game and get banned?

I'll take Tarzan in about an hour for $500 Alex.

 

[Dummy]

Not taking the bait but if you think you are going to get banned filing a complaint can buy you time in some jurisdictions. If the casinos bar you after a complaint they expose themselves to having taken punitive action against someone that posted a legitimate grievance with the overseeing authority. That appearance of taking a vengeful action can cost them and they know it. This is in the same vein of filing a grievance after being banned hurts you argument and makes you seem vindictive.

So being the face of exposing this will get you counters immunity for a while. how long that is I can't say.

 

[Al Rogers]

bjo32, this is just not true. The downfall of Mindplay had everything to do with the delay imposed on them. I sort of held off responding for a day, hoping someone, maybe the likes of an Al Rogers would weigh in, but he hasn't.

It is true the technology was costly, but it would have spread, had that delay not been imposed. THAT ruling was the end of Mindplay. Oh it didn't die right then and there, it took a while, a couple years I guess. But THAT ruling sealed it's fate. Remember that line from Titanic after the ship had hit the iceberg, something like "No matter what we do, from this point on, the Titanic WILL sink." The fate was sealed with that ruling. It just took a little while for Mindplay to officially "sink".

The other thing is that I think you misunderstand my comparison to Mindplay. The comparison isn't that the technologies are all that similar or work the same way. The comparison is that the casino industry accepted a technology that they knew was illegal, everyone with half a brain knew was illegal. They were using a devise to alter the outcome of the game. THAT is not that complicated nor hard to understand. THAT was my comparison.

And my last point: You point out that Mindplay had been around for 5 years. So it's spreading was slow. In large part because it was being challenged. And that was part of my intention bringing this to light. Let's nip this and all future attempts, in the bud....BEFORE it gets to spreading. ​

KJ is correct. I was peripherally involved in the private investigation into its cheating capabilities that led to the lawsuit. Some of the details escape me these many years later, but I specifically recall that Mindplay's development was quietly financed by the Eldorado, and its apparent primary use there was as a cheating device. The Eldorado-backed little Mindplay company and the company it was eventually sold to (I don't recall who it was, but can probably look it up if anyone cares) was able to sell it to the Las Vegas Hilton, where it proved unpopular with players and employees alike, and perhaps the Flamingo (relying only on my faulty memory). It was removed from both casinos within a short time. After the lawsuit, the Mindplay cheating device never surfaced again. The Eldorado gave up and withdrew it from its own casino floor.

 

[KewlJ]

Thanks for weighing in Al.

I did not know Eldorado and the original Mindplay company were connected like that. I thought Eldorado was just an early 'client'. But that should tell some of these people that say "oh the casino industry wouldn't do that kind of thing in this day and age". This was ONLY 12-15 years ago, and not only was a casino 'involved', but likely heavily involved, like behind the scenes owner of a devise that was all about cheating and obviously illegal.

Greed! Players should really keep their eyes open and don't assume anything.

 

[bjo32]

Al, based on what I’ve been able to research on MindPlay, I’ll have to respectfully disagree with you. KJ is wrong on this one. It doesn’t look like this lawsuit had much to do with MindPlay going away. From what I can tell the lawsuit was filed in 2004 and in May 2005 the Nevada Gaming commission ruled that MindPlay is not a cheating device. The agreement was MindPlay had to make sure they had an 8 hand delay in their program, which they were okay with. Note that MindPlay was never marketed for the purpose alleged in the lawsuit. Although several casinos used it, the only casino alleged to have used it to shuffle up early is the El Dorado casino in Reno.

MindPlay was developed by Alliance Gaming, which was later bought by Bally Gaming. I couldn’t find anything that said El Dorado invested in this company. They beta tested it for four years before it came on the market, so this could be why people think El Dorado invested in it. It looks like El Dorado supported it's development. One of the main reasons most casinos were interested in MindPlay was to reduce head count and to help with their comp program. They thought it could be used to replace some of their pit critters. It turned out it worked so poorly this wasn’t possible. Also, the pit critters most likely went out of their way to make sure it didn’t work. It looks like both the players and the casino staff didn’t like it.

I stand by my contention that MindPlay is no longer around primarily because it was expensive, didn’t work well, slowed the game down and the ploppies didn’t like it. In fact, it looks like some of the smarter APs liked it because they could camp out at MindPlay tables and spread with minimal heat because they knew it didn’t work well, but the casinos thought it did. There is a good post on BTF in 2006 by Hollywood. He was in Aruba where MindPlay was installed on 8 tables at the Marriott and got no heat playing on the MindPlay tables. He wonged in at high counts. Don replied to his post.

You’re correct when you say the general public didn’t like it. MindPlay required different tables that made ploppies uncomfortable. Since ploppies didn’t play at the MindPlay tables, it hurt the casinos revenue. This is probably the main reason why it was pulled from casinos, which you also mentioned.

If people are interested in learning more about MindPlay they should go to Wikipedia-MindPlay. It does a good job explaining why it’s no longer around. You will see no mention of the lawsuit, or it being used by casinos to shuffle up on players, since this didn’t play much of a role in it's demise. On this site, another excellent poster on MindPlay is ihate17. He talks about it’s downfall on several threads and appears very knowledgeable. He also doesn’t mention the lawsuit or it being used as a "cheating device" as contributing to its downfall.

 

[Dummy]

bjo, I guess you think if you can't find anything in your research about what happened in a lawsuit then it didn't happen. Did any of your research on lawsuits tell you that when lawsuits are settled that many damaging things are sealed and all evidence that they existed are squelched as a condition of the settlement? If so then you should expect the stuff that is most damaging to reputations etc to be hidden from you. I believe KJ asked AL to chime in because he was actively interested in this when it went down so he would have personal knowledge of what went down. KJ or Al can correct me on this if what I sense here is wrong.

 

[KewlJ]

If people are interested in learning more about MindPlay they should go to Wikipedia-MindPlay. It does a good job explaining why it’s no longer around.

Seriously?? Wikipedia?? You are arguing what you read at Wikipedia over someone that was involved in the case? Al Rogers has spent a great deal of effort, following and reporting on most legal cases and challenges that involve AP's and the AP community for many years now.

 

[JJP]

How about this: at Arlington this past weekend, the race winner was named House of Cortez. And the runnerup? You Split Tens. We are living in a blackjack world.

 

[Hell'nBack]

How about this: at Arlington this past weekend, the race winner was named House of Cortez. And the runnerup? You Split Tens. We are living in a blackjack world.

You are living in the matrix. Get used to it!

 

[bjo32]

Seriously?? Wikipedia?? You are arguing what you read at Wikipedia over someone that was involved in the case? Al Rogers has spent a great deal of effort, following and reporting on most legal cases and challenges that involve AP's and the AP community for many years now.

Yes KewlJ, I understand that Al Rogers was involved in the lawsuit against Eldorado for allegedly using MindPlay in a way it was not intended to be used. No one is debating that.

What we’re debating is if this had anything to with the downfall of MindPlay. Please reread my post.

 

[bjo32]

A couple more points KJ. The timeline doesn’t support your contention that this lawsuit contributed to MindPlay’s downfall. The lawsuit happened in 2004 and was settled in 2005. Most companies bought MindPlay after this lawsuit. Casinos from Aruba, Venezuela, Macau, Vicksburg and Bilixo MS, Mohegan Sun in Conn to cruise ships all bought MindPlay.

Mindplay didn’t go under until 2007. Why? Because it was expensive, it didn’t work well, the casino staff hated it, and the ploppies hated it. That’s not a good combination.

Here’s an interesting tidbit. Shuffle Master sued MindPlay for infringing on two of its patents. This probably also contributed to its downfall. All in all, MindPlay was a disaster. Most casinos couldn’t get it out of their casinos quick enough.