Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some base their opinion on being involved in the events that happened. others try to reconstruct events over 2 decades later and base their opinion on that. Excuse me if I take the former as being more likely to get it right.bjo32 said:
El Cortez Suspected ASM Cheating
- Thread starter Midwest Player
- Start date
Valid point Dummy. I have never disagreed with anyone on what happened at El Dorado. This has never been what this debate is about.Dummy said:
It should be noted that no other casino was accused of doing what Eldorado allegedly did. And MindPlay was being used by casinos around the world before, during and after this time. Al Rogers commented in his post that MindPlay was removed from the Hilton and Flamingo casinos since ploppies wouldn’t play at those tables. Please reread Al Rogers post.
This is also why some casinos have removed CSM. I’ve even played at casinos that have removed ASMs due to ploppies not liking them. Casinos aren’t stupid. When they lose customers because of some new equipment, they remove it.
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
I am not arguing this because it is irrelevant to the point I was making anyway.
My point was that for those that immediately conclude "the casino industry would never do this kind of thing"...THEY ALREADY DID! They already got involved with something that they knew or should have known was illegal. So anyone that isn't keeping an eye open and an open mind, is just asking to be cheated at some point. I don't trust this industry. They are greedy. They have proven this over and over again.
Now back to the original topic of discussion. On WizardofVegas website this morning, Mike Shackleford, posted he was intrigued enough by this discussion that he was going to check out the tables at El Cortez himself. Problem is that after this discussion hit a total of 4 websites, the 2 ASM's at the specific 2 tables mentioned were switched out over a week ago, sometime between Saturday, July 21 and Monday July 23.
I mean I first brought this issue to light a month ago, in a thread that Norm dismissed and moved to the disadvantage section. I then re posted a second post two weeks later that did gain some traction and spread to other sites, including this one It was about 9 days after that second post that the machines in question were switched out.
I requested, almost begged for other players to check this out for themselves, but I meant fairly quickly before anything changes. NOT a month later. So unfortunately I am not on speaking terms with Mr Shackleford and have no means to contact him, so anyone that is a member of that forum or has means to contact him, might want to inform him, he is a little late to the party, so not to waste his time.
I suspect the part that really caught Mike's eye was the math involved, where the counts of +4 or -4 were occurring in 92-93% of shoes, when Don Schlesinger reported one would expect closer to 25%. And that 25% number Don came up with was for a deeper penetration game than EC was dealing. These extreme high and low counts are a bi-product of the high card clumping, depending where the clump comes out. I am sure that was what Mike is interested in, being a math guy.
So anyway, again, someone should alert him not to waste his time right now. Keep an eye out to see if the ASM's in question return to the floor first.
My point was that for those that immediately conclude "the casino industry would never do this kind of thing"...THEY ALREADY DID! They already got involved with something that they knew or should have known was illegal. So anyone that isn't keeping an eye open and an open mind, is just asking to be cheated at some point. I don't trust this industry. They are greedy. They have proven this over and over again.
Now back to the original topic of discussion. On WizardofVegas website this morning, Mike Shackleford, posted he was intrigued enough by this discussion that he was going to check out the tables at El Cortez himself. Problem is that after this discussion hit a total of 4 websites, the 2 ASM's at the specific 2 tables mentioned were switched out over a week ago, sometime between Saturday, July 21 and Monday July 23.
I mean I first brought this issue to light a month ago, in a thread that Norm dismissed and moved to the disadvantage section. I then re posted a second post two weeks later that did gain some traction and spread to other sites, including this one It was about 9 days after that second post that the machines in question were switched out.
I requested, almost begged for other players to check this out for themselves, but I meant fairly quickly before anything changes. NOT a month later. So unfortunately I am not on speaking terms with Mr Shackleford and have no means to contact him, so anyone that is a member of that forum or has means to contact him, might want to inform him, he is a little late to the party, so not to waste his time.
I suspect the part that really caught Mike's eye was the math involved, where the counts of +4 or -4 were occurring in 92-93% of shoes, when Don Schlesinger reported one would expect closer to 25%. And that 25% number Don came up with was for a deeper penetration game than EC was dealing. These extreme high and low counts are a bi-product of the high card clumping, depending where the clump comes out. I am sure that was what Mike is interested in, being a math guy.
So anyway, again, someone should alert him not to waste his time right now. Keep an eye out to see if the ASM's in question return to the floor first.
Midwest Player
Well-Known Member
KJ, you mentioned you have one of these machines and coded it to clump. Have you took the cards out and spread them to see just what the clump looks like. How many cards were in the clump? Also how many times did you do this? Did you start with a random shuffled deck?
It would be cool if a video could be made of this whole process and then posted so we all could see it.
It would be cool if a video could be made of this whole process and then posted so we all could see it.
Other's allege this was happening at many other casinos. I found no evidence it was at the two casinos they mention that I frequent often in my region. The third one I rarely get to and did seem suspicious but since I rarely get there to observe things my observations are meaningless due to being such a small sampling.KewlJ said:
Tater
Well-Known Member
This is like a bad monster movie. "The Thread that Wouldn't Die."
Can you side count Aces and 2 columns for single deck? 3 columns? 4? IF you could do 4 on DD the you might, MIGHT have a case. However, if you could side count the Ace and 3 columns you'd have a steady cash flow. So why sue?
Any AP knows that taking HILO to pitch game is like taking a pair of nail clippers to a knife fight. Most know enough to not bite the hand that feeds them. In this case, KJ is biting the hand that feeds others.
So take credit and take a bow. Many will clap their hands in applause. Others may do it on the side of each of your ears. You think it's over? Naw, I hear Karen Carpenter "we've only just begun."
Little dogs trying to run with the big dogs should stay on the porch.
Can you side count Aces and 2 columns for single deck? 3 columns? 4? IF you could do 4 on DD the you might, MIGHT have a case. However, if you could side count the Ace and 3 columns you'd have a steady cash flow. So why sue?
Any AP knows that taking HILO to pitch game is like taking a pair of nail clippers to a knife fight. Most know enough to not bite the hand that feeds them. In this case, KJ is biting the hand that feeds others.
So take credit and take a bow. Many will clap their hands in applause. Others may do it on the side of each of your ears. You think it's over? Naw, I hear Karen Carpenter "we've only just begun."
Little dogs trying to run with the big dogs should stay on the porch.
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KewlJ
Well-Known Member
Moses, just STFU. Socks should be worn and not heard from. Once again, you don't know what the hell you are talking about, but you continue to talk. Your 3 or 4 column count and/or side counting Aces isn't going to change a damn thing in regards to such clumping activities. When the 10 value clump comes out and you and the other players push with the dealer, no count, not yours, not Tarzan's, (who of late you have attempted to lump yourself in with) will make one bit of difference. Your 20 push will be 20 push.....PERIOD.
Aces are carefully, kept away from the 10 card clump. You will still witness BJ's throughout the deck, but not associated with this 10 value clump that is present in each shoe. I suspect if you kept track of blackjack's seen you would notice far fewer than 1 in 20/21 normal number. That is another way you could check, but that would take an even larger sample size than checking the +4, -4 counts. These are by products of the clumping activity that a player can look for in addition to seeing the clump itself.
The AP's that are doing well are not doing well because of the primary game. There is no way to beat the primary game. So stop threats of physical violence and just go away and play your little single deck game spreading the low limit amounts that are tolerated in THAT jurisdiction.
MWP, there is an issue with posting video online. The manufacturer of this product have taken extreme measures to protect themselves, regarding ownership of these machines. I have been strongly advised that IF anyone were to possess such a machine and post video online, they are setting themselves up for a heap of liability and trouble. (notice the wording there.
I am not taking credit, nor taking a bow as this "hater" is indicating. I am not even involved, should this case go forward in any manner. What I did was bring it this situation to the attention of players in our community. I regret that it upset a handful of AP's that were exploiting side bets. Had I realized that before hand, I probably would have just sat on this information and just protected myself, without warning others.
I really don't care about members of various sites, immediately responding that this is conspiracy stuff, nor the casino industry, related members denying it. Some of these people know the truth and are denying because of an association with the industry, others have absolutely no information, nor knowledge, but that isn't stopping them from talking, like Moses here. I don't care if I am the bad guy. I warned members of the community to take a look at this situation, which has at lease temporarily eased, but more importantly, I hope I reminded players, to be vigilant and not trust the gaming industry, nor take this industry at their word, or with future issues.
Aces are carefully, kept away from the 10 card clump. You will still witness BJ's throughout the deck, but not associated with this 10 value clump that is present in each shoe. I suspect if you kept track of blackjack's seen you would notice far fewer than 1 in 20/21 normal number. That is another way you could check, but that would take an even larger sample size than checking the +4, -4 counts. These are by products of the clumping activity that a player can look for in addition to seeing the clump itself.
The AP's that are doing well are not doing well because of the primary game. There is no way to beat the primary game. So stop threats of physical violence and just go away and play your little single deck game spreading the low limit amounts that are tolerated in THAT jurisdiction.
MWP, there is an issue with posting video online. The manufacturer of this product have taken extreme measures to protect themselves, regarding ownership of these machines. I have been strongly advised that IF anyone were to possess such a machine and post video online, they are setting themselves up for a heap of liability and trouble. (notice the wording there.
I am not taking credit, nor taking a bow as this "hater" is indicating. I am not even involved, should this case go forward in any manner. What I did was bring it this situation to the attention of players in our community. I regret that it upset a handful of AP's that were exploiting side bets. Had I realized that before hand, I probably would have just sat on this information and just protected myself, without warning others.
I really don't care about members of various sites, immediately responding that this is conspiracy stuff, nor the casino industry, related members denying it. Some of these people know the truth and are denying because of an association with the industry, others have absolutely no information, nor knowledge, but that isn't stopping them from talking, like Moses here. I don't care if I am the bad guy. I warned members of the community to take a look at this situation, which has at lease temporarily eased, but more importantly, I hope I reminded players, to be vigilant and not trust the gaming industry, nor take this industry at their word, or with future issues.
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KewlJ
Well-Known Member
Here is yet another 'byproduct' of this clumping that a player might or might not notice. The dealer will break less. All those occasions that a dealer draws a 2, 3, 4 card 12 thru 16 where a 10 card would bust him, there are fewer of these 10 value cards available to bust him. The 10 value clump acts basically the same as removing those 10 value cards from play.
So if you tracked the dealer bust rate, THAT too is going to be lower, huge house advantage. I don't think players have yet realized how dastardly this action is and just how bad for the player, card counter or ploppie.
So if you tracked the dealer bust rate, THAT too is going to be lower, huge house advantage. I don't think players have yet realized how dastardly this action is and just how bad for the player, card counter or ploppie.
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KewlJ
Well-Known Member
Here is an interesting tidbit. Eliot Jacobson, brilliant math guy, bad AP (traitor), made and posted a video on Wizard's site attempting to debunk my claims. I particularly like Eliot's desclaimer that he has been out of the game for a few years, so really has no idea. But that didn't stop him from expressing his wrong opinions/conclusions, with a lot of "if' and "maybe's" type terminology.
So the interesting think is at the very beginning Eliot talks about the clump always being at the beginning of play. I don't know where he got that. If it were that simple, I think everyone and their mother would be on to it and immediately know how to take advantage. The placement of the 10 value clump is determined by the cut more than anything.
So initially, I thought maybe Eliot's assertion was sort of correct, without him even having realized it (kind of a blind squirrel scenario). I thought maybe the ASM, forms the clump at the beginning of the deck(s) and the cut determines where it goes from there. That scenario too could be exploited.
But that is not the case. Having seen the machine in action (wording) the clump is formed at different places in the deck even before the deck(s) are cut. I haven't yet determined what exactly determines that. Perhaps it is the initial reading by the machine, determining where more 10 value cards are, so it then clumps in that particular area. That is a very uneducated guess or speculation. I have no idea what determines that, but it isn't Eliot's almost blind squire theory.
So the interesting think is at the very beginning Eliot talks about the clump always being at the beginning of play. I don't know where he got that. If it were that simple, I think everyone and their mother would be on to it and immediately know how to take advantage. The placement of the 10 value clump is determined by the cut more than anything.
So initially, I thought maybe Eliot's assertion was sort of correct, without him even having realized it (kind of a blind squirrel scenario). I thought maybe the ASM, forms the clump at the beginning of the deck(s) and the cut determines where it goes from there. That scenario too could be exploited.
But that is not the case. Having seen the machine in action (wording) the clump is formed at different places in the deck even before the deck(s) are cut. I haven't yet determined what exactly determines that. Perhaps it is the initial reading by the machine, determining where more 10 value cards are, so it then clumps in that particular area. That is a very uneducated guess or speculation. I have no idea what determines that, but it isn't Eliot's almost blind squire theory.
KewlJ
Well-Known Member
bjo32,
Based not only on your defense of the gambling industry here (backed by Wikipedia "facts"), but also your recent post at WoV defending the industry, a post that you signed up for just so you could make....I have to ask: Do you have some sort of association with the casino industry? Do you work for the industry or someone associated? Does a family member or friend? Any association what-so-ever? (not that I expect an honest answer)
Based not only on your defense of the gambling industry here (backed by Wikipedia "facts"), but also your recent post at WoV defending the industry, a post that you signed up for just so you could make....I have to ask: Do you have some sort of association with the casino industry? Do you work for the industry or someone associated? Does a family member or friend? Any association what-so-ever? (not that I expect an honest answer)
Tater
Well-Known Member
KJ. So now you want us all to believe the cards "always" come out in clumps of 10s? What a goofball! There will be times when low TC has a strong deck composition and there will be times when high TC has a weak deck composition. THIS is what you are experiencing. A more patient and disciplined approach is required. You can't possibly see it with HILO. Pitch players have been winning this way for years. But you need pen to win.
So take your thumb out of your mouth, grow the fuck up. Stop whining or stay on the porch. But don't screw it up for everyone else just because you don't know how to play.
Go back to what you know. Count two tables and shoes.
So take your thumb out of your mouth, grow the fuck up. Stop whining or stay on the porch. But don't screw it up for everyone else just because you don't know how to play.
Go back to what you know. Count two tables and shoes.
I agree. Ironic the OP was in regard to BJFT. So +1. woohoo. Yo Adrian, I did it!21forme said:
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KJ, I’m not associated in any way with the gambling industry but even if I was what would that matter. I’m only trying to get at the truth. I’m not trying to defend the casino industry or the AP community. It appears it’s a rare bird within the AP world who does research and wants to undestand things. I’ve never been big into conspiracies but I keep an open mind. Most of the time I’ve found the conspericy nuts are wrong.KewlJ said:
As far as MindPlay, I found it a fastinging topic. I wouldn’t have known about it had you not brought it up. It was interesting to see the take by the AP community on it and then find out the real story. It was flawed product that was doomed regardless if the EC lawsuit happened. People accusing MindPlay of being a cheating device was the least of their problems. The reason Wickpedia didn’t mention the lawsuit was because it was insignificant in the demise of MindPlay.
As far as the recent allegations against EC and how they use two ASMs, they don’t pass what I call the sniff test. There are so many inconsistencies in this story, it’s hard to believe any of it. The part I find the funniest is that some APs really thought they were exploiting it.
Most AP's know well about MindPlay and paid attention to developments in real time, when it was all happening.bjo32 said:
If the casinos where allowed to use it as a cheating device it would have been successful. Also it was found illegal in Nevada. That doesn't affect casinos in other jurisdictions. Most states would follow the lead of Nevada but international casinos would be totally unaffected. That explains why so many foreign casinos bought it after the case was decided. They learned a new way to cheat could be employed. So they bought it. But globally patrons also found out it was a cheating device and refused to play it.bjo32 said:
They are. You just need to think about how the clumping can be used to your advantage. Obviously it is designed to defeat counting for the main bet. There are other options to exploit besides your main bet. That is why I have always been skeptical. Certain other betting options, if available, would become very lucrative.bjo32 said:
Wrong on all fronts. You’re giving ploppies way to much credit. They are superstitious. Most didn’t like MindPlay because the tables were different. So most ploppies didn’t play on the MindPlay tables. Casinos want customers or they will go bankrupt.Dummy said:
Did you read the post by Hollywood on BJTF when he visited Aruba in 2006? He loved the MindPlay tables. He could wong in at high counts without problems. These were his favorite tables.
Go back and read some of the posts on MindPlay on the different bj forums. Most of the smarter APs loved MindPlay. They did not see it as a cheating device. They could camp out at these tables with big spreads and they were not detected.
Here’s something else to think about. The casino staff hated MindPlay since one of its purposes was to eliminate jobs. This is why it probably didn’t work at some casinos. The staff went out of their way to make sure it didn’t work.
There is a lot of reasons for its demise. Did I mention it was very expensive and hard to keep up? Anyway you look at MindPlay, it’s pretty easy to see why it didn’t make it.
Btw, companies in all industries make these type of mistakes all the time. It’s called being human. They invest in technology that doesn’t work. When they find out it doesn’t work, they get rid of it.
BJgenius007
Well-Known Member
It is always my thesis that ASM clumps cards so the dealers will bust less.KewlJ said:
1) On face card clump, everyone pushed with dealer's 20 except the one or two persons got the accent card at the full table.
2) On small card clump, most people playing by the book choose stand while dealer easily makes his or her hand. This is how the casinos make the most money because the dealers seem lucky and make most hands.
3) On mid card (8 and 9) clump, Basic Strategy players keep split their pairs then bust most hands against upcard 8 or 9. (There are few accent cards but most cards are eight or nine. Making players bust more likely.) Sometimes they end up with a lousy 17 (8 and 9).
Clumping helps ASM increase house edge a lot if ASM is able to read the ranks of cards and sequence it by grouping similar ranked cards. And the technology is already here. What can return the deck to the original form can also be used to group similar ranked cards.
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Maybe you think ploppies will play devices they believe are used to cheat, but that dog don't hunt with me. I don't play were the typical ploppy is an uneducated rube. Maybe in those areas they play when they believe they are being cheated. Some APs are that stupid as we have seen from their posts. I am glad you are so certain that your decades late research is more accurate than those that paid attention while this all played out. How many times has the textbooks rewritten history? Do you think the redaction and rewriting of history is more accurate or the accounts of the people that lived through it are more accurate? When researching you have to be careful to get the real story, not one of the rewrites.
Tater
Well-Known Member
LOL. Good analogy.Dummy said:
Exactly where is Fantasy Island?Dummy said:
Let me know when you're finished with this Mindplay thing. Question is how much? Ironic, probably the best answer would come from a Dummy. How appropiate for this thread. But I don't want to do all that writing just for you to disregard. Hence, I know you know. But will you tell?
Dummy, I’m going to try one last time and then we’re going to have to agree to disagree.Dummy said:
I think we’re talking about two different things. You’re referring to what went down at Eldorado with MindPlay. I have never disputed that.
I’m talking about the bigger picture as it relates to MindPlay. The allegations made at Eldorado were not made against any other casino who were using MindPlay. I could not find any other casinos that were sued for using MindPlay in a way it was not intended to be used.
The timeline also doesn’t fit. After the lawsuit, many casinos around the world bought MindPlay. This shows that these casinos were not going to use MindPlay in the way alleged by Eldorado. They knew MindPlay would have an 8 hand delay and they still bought it. None of these casinos were buying it to cheat.
The interesting fact I found that nobody mentions on forums or even in wikipedia is that Shuffle Master sued MindPlay for patent infringement. Did you know that? I expect this also might have had something to do with the demise of MindPlay.
Why are you so narrower minded and unwilling to hear the whole story on MindPlay. Yes, there was a lawsuit brought against Eldorado early on, but that only played a very small part (in all likelihood no part) in Mindplay’s demise.
If it makes you feel better to believed MindPlay was devopled for the purpose of cheating then go ahead. That’s your call. You can go ahead and live in your own little fantasy world, where all casinos are evil and just sit around trying to think up new ways to cheat.