El Cortez Suspected ASM Cheating

[KewlJ]

Almost forgot. Thank you for the information gronbog. I appreciate that. I think it is pretty petty to have this discussion, a discussion that I started and is about math, and not allow the person who began the discussion to participate, especially when you are making up the math and conditions that aren't there.

Petty isn't even the word. Cowardice is. Be better than this Norman.

 

[DSchles]

You're doing the same thing I did the first time around, which is not understand the proposition.

There is a difference between what percentage of hands in a shoe are at a specific true count (say +4 or -4) and what percentage of shoes ever reach (if even for a single hand in the shoe) a TC of +4 or -4. Before you say another word, if you don't understand the difference between the two, no discussion is possible. So think about it.

Don

 

[KewlJ]

I do understand it Don. And have actually now read the discussion that Norm tried to hide.

Here's the problem. You think there is going to be exactly (1) TC of +/-4 every shoe? It is my experience that when that count is achieved, likely just a couple rounds, possible 3 before shuffle, you will see that high count for several rounds....probably until shuffle. Rarely do you see it just 1 round.

And that being the case then that total percentage of +4/-4 counts is spread out over less shoes, not more. The MAJORITY of shoes, the TC stays between +2 and -2.

Regardless, as I said, I play this game. @ 60% penetration I see roughly 30% of shoes achieve this number, not 93% as I was seeing with the card clumping ASM's. AND now that the machines in questions have been switched out, guess what, back to 30%, maybe 33%, but no more.

 

[KewlJ]

Really this is about the penetration. And the actual condition or penetration altered like this is going to make a HUGE difference.

@ 75% penetration, the last round dealt with 26-30 cards remaining, would only need a running count of +/- 2 to equal a TC of+/- 4.
But with 60% pen, the last round is dealt with 45-50 cards remaining (almost 1 deck), so you need a running count of +/- 4 to equal a TC of +/- 4.

Whoever changed the parameters of the game to 75% penetration when it is actually 60%, is comparing apples to not even oranges, but apples to watermelons.

Edit: Let me put it this way: IF the game in question were dealt to 75% penetration, with a TC of+4 or -4 every single shoe, I would be in heaven! I wouldn't be playing the TC at -4 and could beat this crap out of this game with a 1-3 spread, even throwing cover on the minimum wager. BUT that is NOT what this game is.

So I am requesting this "independent" analysis be done again, with the parameters of what this game is, 60% penetration and usually 1 other players (sometimes 2, sometimes heads up). And then we will talk and we won't be talking about 93% of shoes going to TC +/-4. We won't even be talking 50%. We will be talking in the neighborhood of 30%.

 

[Tater]

O brother. Heads up you're getting a TC4+ in 5 out of 16 DD shoes (200 hands at 60% pen). And you think you're being cheated?

 

[Midwest Player]

Okay KJ, I understand you can't show a video. Then how about posting the results of 10 shuffles of the machine on beast mode, and then the results of 10 shuffles on regular mode for a DD game. Something like this for the 104 cards in the DD game. It would be easy to fan the cards out after a shuffle.
1) 5 7 9 10 A 3 etc
2)

 

[Tater]

Tater/moses, almost everything in your last post is false.
.

I am not Moses. You can ask BigJer. He has met us both. I've explained it to you in a PM. However, you keep harassing me. But the good news is you get to meet Moses real soon. He's decided to come to Vegas. Find you so you can take your girly rants up with him personally. If you have it in you. His words. Not Mine. Actually, he used a stronger word than "girly."

Now if you want to meet me I'm easy to find. I'm the biggest guy in the sportsbook. Also, one of the most easy going. PM me and I will let you know which one. Or you can sit and talk to both of us at the same time. Except I don't think you will be having a folksy chat with Moses.

Yes, the Tater plays $5 tables. KJ, you have a problem with that? Like Moses, I still work hard to advance my game. I enjoy a challenge. There is always one more thing you can do. I don't place the same value on money as most people. Houses, cars who needs it? I've been a casino rat since 1980. I enjoy sleeping under the stars. Since you referred Zen Zone, I happened to read what you think about stinky homeless people.

Man, you are really full of yourself. I expect Moses will knock you off your pedestal and your thrown where you sit in judgement of others.

Petty isn't even the word. Cowardice is. Be better than this Norman.

Perfect example. Look in the mirror. You will have the chance to prove your cowardice very soon. Be a man KJ.

 

[KewlJ]

I am not Moses. But the good news is you get to meet Moses real soon. He's decided to come to Vegas. Find you so you can take your girly rants up with him personally. If you have it in you. His words. Not Mine. Actually, he used a stronger word than that. Except I don't think you will be having a folksy chat with Moses.

I expect Moses will knock you off your pedestal and your thrown where you sit in judgement of others.
Perfect example. Look in the mirror. You will have the chance to prove your cowardice very soon. Be a man KJ.

Moses/Tater, you have threatened me on 3 different forums in the last 12 hours, including a forum where you started a thread stating you were coming to LV to kick my ass and asking members how to find me. On some forums you added in homophobic rants.

Are you drunk? or just deranged? Just too stupid to realize these posts are a crime? Split personalities, with this moses / tater and probably others?

Doesn't matter. I have printed out each of your threats along with the forum owner/administrator to contact for each forum and should you assault me or force me to shoot you while defending myself, I will just hand them over to the police if/when necessary. Easy peasy.

 

[Tater]

Moses is one the most easy going guys I've ever met. Until someone gets in his face or sees someone in a situation where they are being harassed and can't defend themselves. Your above post pretty much describes you as a forum chicken shit. You're all talk and you have nothing of any substance "in" you. Now, it's out there for all too see you for what you really are.

If you had one ounce of man in you, then you'd be anxious to back up your words. Continue to live with that demon of fear that lurks within you. It's far more difficult than simply backing up what you say. I see it everyday.

Moses simply drew you out in the open to expose who and what you really are. Just another wimp with alot of words.

Now I'm done with conversating with a coward. But I know you will reply. Put up or shut up. The answer is "in" you.

 

[Midwest Player]

Moses/Tater have you ever contributed one little ounce of worth while blackjack information. All your posts are about threatening folks. Okay you are probably a big dumb jock. Live by the sword. Die by the sword. You have not only threatened KJ, but also Norm and made many implied threats to folks over at BJTF. All your posts are about standing up and never backing down, never anything about blackjack.

Maybe you saw on the news recently were this guy shoved some one for yelling at his wife for being parked in a handicap parking spot. The guy pulled out a gun and blew him away. I'm not saying that was right, but it sounds like you are constantly looking for a fight. Someday you will meet your match. Remember, live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

[Tater]

Maybe you saw on the news recently were this guy shoved some one for yelling at his wife for being parked in a handicap parking spot. The guy pulled out a gun and blew him away. I'm not saying that was right, but it sounds like you are constantly looking for a fight. Someday you will meet your match. Remember, live by the sword, die by the sword.

I can't speak for Moses. But Tater can't get something out of my head. Maybe you can help. One night I was sitting in the sportsbook. This elderly gent was drunk and flashing his cash. These two punks befriended him. I knew they were going to rob him. I think I told myself he shouldn't have been flashing his cash in the first place.

Now, I could've easily wiped out those two punks. Moses would have IMO. But I went on about my own business. What I didn't know until the next day was they were going to beat him to a pulp. So you tell me Midwest Player. How do I GET THAT OUT OF MY HEAD?

 

[Rebecca C]

@ Tater

A wasted life sitting in stinky sportsbooks? Why not make your bets and move on? Too much chest thumping in yours and Moses's life. It's not attractive.

 

[SplitFaceDisaster]

What is going on in this thread?! Tater all of a sudden you`re threatening someone because you disagree with them? Or do you own stock in EC? Seems like to me that the only reason KJ said anything negative about you was because you personally insulted him first for his claim. If you don`t want to believe him then fine, don`t. He nor anyone else cares if you don`t believe it. This is the problem with forums. There`s always someone wanting to turn a subject into whose dick is bigger, count is better, who has won more money, etc., etc. Now making it into who`s a bigger badass and threatening someone though? That`s way worse, and if you think you`re impressing anyone, you`re not.

Now, I could've easily wiped out those two punks. Moses would have IMO. But I went on about my own business. What I didn't know until the next day was they were going to beat him to a pulp. So you tell me Midwest Player. How do I GET THAT OUT OF MY HEAD?

WTF does this story have anything to do with the subject at hand?

 

[JJP]

Tater is going third person in his last post. This is getting interesting.

 

[bjo32]

On VSIN, they just said Nevada casinos had a hold of $100 million for blackjack alone in July (over $200 million for slots). Apparently they don't feel its enough. They've f-kd with the rules at numerous places. Would anyone truly be shocked if they tried to use clumping as a way to stomp out APs?

JJP, I don’t think this is a fair comparison. There’s a big difference in casinos trying to increase revenue via legal means vs illegal means. Casinos changing the rules so they are more favorable to the House is legal. Casinos using ASMs to purposely create clumps is illegal, which comes with big fines, lose of license and possibly jail time, depending on how severe the cheating is.

This would be like saying since Vegas casinos started making people pay for parking to increase their revenues, they are now more likely to cheat on all their games to increase revenue. No one (at least not reasonable people) would make this leap.

I do agree with you on not playing places where you feel you are being cheated. If you don’t think the game is on the up and up leave and play somewhere else. I’ve never felt that way but if I did I wouldn’t be playing there.

 

[LV Bear]

There’s a big difference in casinos trying to increase revenue via legal means vs illegal means. Casinos changing the rules so they are more favorable to the House is legal. Casinos using ASMs to purposely create clumps is illegal, which comes with big fines, lose of license and possibly jail time, depending on how severe the cheating is.

Violence against patrons, false imprisonment, and unreasonably refusing to cash chips are also crimes, though casinos and their employees are never criminally prosecuted, and have not stopped these vile activities despite scores of successful civil lawsuits across the country. Despite absolute video evidence of criminal conduct many, many times, never has a casino lost its license, nor an employee lost the ability to continue being employed by casinos as a result of these cases.

The Venetian several years ago admitted to cheating patrons by rigging a drawing and other crimes, but the only punishment was a fine of a million dollars, chump change to Venetian. No license revocation, no license suspension, no punishment at all for the dishonest employees. The crooks continued to work in the industry; no one went to jail or was even criminally charged. See also this Mississippi cheating case; no one went to jail and no punishment for the casino; it just had to pay what it owed -- the casino and the crooked employees got a free roll.

I don't think fear or even respect for the law or Gaming authorities factors into many casino decisions. I am certainly not saying there was cheating in the situation KJ describes -- I don't know -- but I want to note that clearly, obeying laws is not high on the list of many casino employees' and managers' priorities. Casinos are essentially lawless territory, with the agencies tasked with protecting the public being too cozy with the industry they are supposed to be regulating and doing little to truly protect the public. Nevada, home of the El Cortez, is probably the worst place for this, as you likely already know.

 

[bjo32]

Violence against patrons, false imprisonment, and unreasonably refusing to cash chips are also crimes, though casinos and their employees are never criminally prosecuted, and have not stopped these vile activities despite scores of successful civil lawsuits across the country. Despite absolute video evidence of criminal conduct many, many times, never has a casino lost its license, nor an employee lost the ability to continue being employed by casinos as a result of these cases.

The Venetian several years ago admitted to cheating patrons by rigging a drawing and other crimes, but the only punishment was a fine of a million dollars, chump change to Venetian. No license revocation, no license suspension, no punishment at all for the dishonest employees. The crooks continued to work in the industry; no one went to jail or was even criminally charged. See also this Mississippi cheating case; no one went to jail and no punishment for the casino; it just had to pay what it owed -- the casino and the crooked employees got a free roll.

I don't think fear or even respect for the law or Gaming authorities factors into many casino decisions. I am certainly not saying there was cheating in the situation KJ describes -- I don't know -- but I want to note that clearly, obeying laws is not high on the list of many casino employees' and managers' priorities. Casinos are essentially lawless territory, with the agencies tasked with protecting the public being too cozy with the industry they are supposed to be regulating and doing little to truly protect the public. Nevada, home of the El Cortez, is probably the worst place for this, as you likely already know.

Valid points. But I still stand behind my comments. There is a difference between increasing revenue by legal means vs illegal means. This goes for all industries, companies and self employed people. I think it’s an unfair criticism to assume because a company (any company) is trying to increase revenues through legal means, that they are also trying to do it through illegal means.

 

[JJP]

I didn't get to see BJO32's response to my post until now but LVBear584 did a more than adequate job responding.

So basically we can't assume they will go from legal means to illegal means. But we also can't assume they won't do it. How many people out there would be shocked if they found out a casino/casinos did resort to illegal means? I don't think anyone would be shocked.

 

[Dummy]

The Venetian several years ago admitted to cheating patrons by rigging a drawing and other crimes, but the only punishment was a fine of a million dollars, chump change to Venetian. No license revocation, no license suspension, no punishment at all for the dishonest employees. The crooks continued to work in the industry; no one went to jail or was even criminally charged. See also this Mississippi cheating case; no one went to jail and no punishment for the casino; it just had to pay what it owed -- the casino and the crooked employees got a free roll.

Maybe the crusaders Tater/Moses will take the criminals out. This would certainly be a better focus for their rage.

 

[psyduck]

What is going on in this thread?! Tater all of a sudden you`re threatening someone because you disagree with them? Or do you own stock in EC? Seems like to me that the only reason KJ said anything negative about you was because you personally insulted him first for his claim. If you don`t want to believe him then fine, don`t. He nor anyone else cares if you don`t believe it. This is the problem with forums. There`s always someone wanting to turn a subject into whose dick is bigger, count is better, who has won more money, etc., etc. Now making it into who`s a bigger badass and threatening someone though? That`s way worse, and if you think you`re impressing anyone, you`re not.

Well said...........