Hi, I'm new, I worked in the industry, in ...
- Thread starter Mr.M
- Start date
Finn Dog
Well-Known Member
Mr. M,
I came up with a few:
1. You mentioned yesterday to leave after just 20 to 30 minutes...can you stay longer if you play through one shoe on a table in one pit, and then through another shoe in a different pit and so on--or does this not help and would you still recommend getting out after 20 to 30 minutes regardless?
2. I've heard that surveillance needs about three shoes to figure out what a counter is doing...is that three consecutive shoes at the same table or three shoes from three separate tables?
3. You mentioned you play Black (cheques) and spread $100 to $1200 over two hands. So obviously you aren't worried about there being increased surveillance at a $100 minimum table vs. a (Green) $25 minimum table. Can you tell us more about this (there was a previous thread that theorized most pros make their living on Green tables not Black)?
4. Some people recommend big buy ins for comp purposes followed by big bets off the top. What are your thoughts on this?
Thank you!
FD
I came up with a few:
1. You mentioned yesterday to leave after just 20 to 30 minutes...can you stay longer if you play through one shoe on a table in one pit, and then through another shoe in a different pit and so on--or does this not help and would you still recommend getting out after 20 to 30 minutes regardless?
2. I've heard that surveillance needs about three shoes to figure out what a counter is doing...is that three consecutive shoes at the same table or three shoes from three separate tables?
3. You mentioned you play Black (cheques) and spread $100 to $1200 over two hands. So obviously you aren't worried about there being increased surveillance at a $100 minimum table vs. a (Green) $25 minimum table. Can you tell us more about this (there was a previous thread that theorized most pros make their living on Green tables not Black)?
4. Some people recommend big buy ins for comp purposes followed by big bets off the top. What are your thoughts on this?
Thank you!
FD
Last edited:
EasyRhino
Well-Known Member
I also recommend not naming specific names of anyone in the public posts, just out of courtesy.
a) I can't make out what the rest of your screen name means?
b) Why do you no longer work in surveillance?
c) How much time did you guys spend looking for actual cheats (players or employees)?
d) How did your BJ Survey work? What was it? Proprietary software program? Spreadsheet? Paper? What did it do?
a) I can't make out what the rest of your screen name means?
b) Why do you no longer work in surveillance?
c) How much time did you guys spend looking for actual cheats (players or employees)?
d) How did your BJ Survey work? What was it? Proprietary software program? Spreadsheet? Paper? What did it do?
Last edited by a moderator:
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
Finn Dog,
You said: "big buy ins for comp purposes"
Big Buy-Ins have no effect on comps at major casinos that have comps worth going after.
Hosts love to promulgate such misinformation because it often leads to increased losses.
The Host receives a percentage of your "theoretical" loss. He is NOT your friend.
The casino cares ONLY about time at the table and the average bet.
MGM properties actually measure the precise number of minutes that you have played.
A Card Counter buying in "big" is suspicious behavior in and of itself.
If it is very big, the Pit Boss may call surveillance on the strength of that
alone. Furthermore MOST players who buy-in "big" are betting big or they
are flat betting or using an obvious dumb progression.
Buying in for $1,000 in quarters and betting $50 off-the-top is NOT wise.
Typically the gambler who buys in for $1,000 is betting $100 per hand.
$1,000 is (at least) double the buy-in that I would recommend.
One of the best ways to get the pit to ignore you is to look like a
common loser by pulling out just 1 or 2 'benjamins' at a time.
You said: "big buy ins for comp purposes"
Big Buy-Ins have no effect on comps at major casinos that have comps worth going after.
Hosts love to promulgate such misinformation because it often leads to increased losses.
The Host receives a percentage of your "theoretical" loss. He is NOT your friend.
The casino cares ONLY about time at the table and the average bet.
MGM properties actually measure the precise number of minutes that you have played.
A Card Counter buying in "big" is suspicious behavior in and of itself.
If it is very big, the Pit Boss may call surveillance on the strength of that
alone. Furthermore MOST players who buy-in "big" are betting big or they
are flat betting or using an obvious dumb progression.
Buying in for $1,000 in quarters and betting $50 off-the-top is NOT wise.
Typically the gambler who buys in for $1,000 is betting $100 per hand.
$1,000 is (at least) double the buy-in that I would recommend.
One of the best ways to get the pit to ignore you is to look like a
common loser by pulling out just 1 or 2 'benjamins' at a time.
Only if you're winning get out, if you're losing nobody cares. Nobody messes with you. Even if you are caught by MR. surveillance the nut job, they wont do anything if you're losing. Great people these casinos aren't they, if they recognize you you will be out winning or losing.Finn Dog said:
No they dont need 3 shoes, they need a positive and negative shoe, thats it. But were I was at, they still had to run it through BJ Survey before any action as taken.
Well I had already lost $8,000 in slots so I knew there would be no heat on me even if I won. I tapped out my Credit Card, were going into recession why not empty the reserves.
Last edited:
EasyRhino said:
LOL, well its a reference to the people I worked with. ****, and the rest are initials of the asswipes I worked with.
I made a quick enemy and went to HR, and basically was ****ed, worked in **** for many years till they conjured up some BS to fire me. The Boss has allot of connections and is pretty much black balled me from getting a job again. Surveillance departments are tight groups, they talk.
If you answered the phones and did your paperwork, as much as you wanted. If you wanted to just sit there and act like you're working you could. Usually we had enough paperwork bullshit to keep us busy and a hefty 800 VCR tape change.
Software program, it tracks the play, bet spread, deviations, Running, true count, ace count. It gives percentages that the player is advantage, random, if he is ace tracking, using a computer. It can be had, just need to check legal to see if I can print it. I would think I can't, if I expose it, the company that made the program may want to come after me. Surveillance departments wouldn't use it anymore and they would be broke and pissed.
Last edited by a moderator:
Katweezel
Well-Known Member
Hierarchy
Can you write a little - if you would - about the hierarchical structure of surveillance where you worked; from the floor, the pit, up to the very top... and (briefly) how it works in practice, (or is supposed to work in practice.) How are the casino managements' orders communicated to surveillance and then implemented? :cat:
Last edited by a moderator:
EasyRhino
Well-Known Member
More questions about the BJ Survey program please:
Could you tell if this was a fairly standardized piece or commercial software (who's the vendor?) or was it customized for your shop or chain? How much work was it to use? Did you have to input every card that was played throughout the shoes you were observing?
And did you guys have anyone in your shop who could count themselves, or do fancier things?) did you rely on these people any?
Could you tell if this was a fairly standardized piece or commercial software (who's the vendor?) or was it customized for your shop or chain? How much work was it to use? Did you have to input every card that was played throughout the shoes you were observing?
And did you guys have anyone in your shop who could count themselves, or do fancier things?) did you rely on these people any?
The surveillance department answers to only the CEO. we have no boss in the casino. If you have a boss with some balls, he wont do all the stupid ****. The pit doesn't have have to listen to surveillance either. Our job was to just observe, record, and document.It all comes down to covering your ass, if you have a spineless Yes man in surveillance he dos whatever the floor, slots, security asks, to a point. He does this so the Slot, Sec., and any department head doesn't go to their Exec. If the pit says we have a counter and surveillance does nothing, then the next day if its a big win, the heat will come down on surveillance. Its two sides going to Execs and bitching, the bottom line if the house losses, somebody has to be blamed. If both departments work together then they scrutinize everything the player is doing looking for that 1 valid reason to boot them. The Execs just want to hear we made $1,000,000 from tables. They don't understand how a high roller can win $5,000,000 on 1 trip. Truth is, as far as I know, the Execs aren't to worried about AP, they just care about the High Rollers. This is in a big joint, small joints are different, they do care because every little bit hurts there profits. Its the surveillance department that understands counters are "bad". No offense. The casino business in the 15 years from what I have seen is, kissing ass and knowing the right people. Most jobs are from who you know, not what you know. But some people get the job and do apply themselves and become good. Most are idiots that are under qualified. I guess every business is somewhat like this, maybe not as bad as a Casino. A monkey can be trained to do any job in a Casino.Katweezel said:
EasyRhino said:
A few, I know only 1, 2 during my time there that were excellent and understood what to watch for. The others could get by if they watched a positive shoe with a big bet spread. Most don't have the patience or time to watch till they get the neg. and pos. shoe and see the bet spread, and etc..
50% of people didn't know how to count. If they were asked to watch a player and didn't see big bets after watching for ten minutes they would say he is not counting. This day and age, it seems like people struggle with numbers so much. It would be hard for some to count, track the bet spread, basic strategy and deviating from it. Most of them don't even know the key hands of basic strategy to watch for. 9's vs the 7-8-9-10, Ace-7 vs anything, the deviations for 12 and 13 vs the dealers 2-3-4-5, etc..
Last edited:
callipygian
Well-Known Member
No questions to contribute, but I wanted to thank you for answering the others. 
Katweezel
Well-Known Member
Boot returns
M, We have been fortunate indeed, that you showed up. Now, when a counter is made and then presumably backed off or restricted and/or given the boot, and he brazenly returns to the scene of his 'crime' one week or one month later, would his mug be recognized? If so, how? How does this aspect of surveillance work? Is it the same process for an 86? :cat:
M, We have been fortunate indeed, that you showed up. Now, when a counter is made and then presumably backed off or restricted and/or given the boot, and he brazenly returns to the scene of his 'crime' one week or one month later, would his mug be recognized? If so, how? How does this aspect of surveillance work? Is it the same process for an 86? :cat:
Finn Dog
Well-Known Member
When To Return?
Mr. M:
1. Let's say you just had a moderate win of 50 units so you've cut your session short at 30 minutes.
How long till you'd advise returning to the same shop on a different shift?
2. Then same question but for a win approaching the tolerance levels--let's say in the 200 unit range?
Best regards,
FD
Mr. M:
1. Let's say you just had a moderate win of 50 units so you've cut your session short at 30 minutes.
How long till you'd advise returning to the same shop on a different shift?
2. Then same question but for a win approaching the tolerance levels--let's say in the 200 unit range?
Best regards,
FD
Last edited: