Be real careful having someone else cashing your chips in. That could be a world of trouble too.Automatic Monkey said:and would be comfortable playing craps or roulette with your green chips before cashing them in.
Be real careful having someone else cashing your chips in. That could be a world of trouble too.Automatic Monkey said:and would be comfortable playing craps or roulette with your green chips before cashing them in.
i think you should start playing a different shift. i got my first backoff, and major heat at one routine casino and one casino i'd never been to before just recently. all three came out of the blue.... never hurts to be diligent by trying to AVOID problems. if you think a dealer is on to you, you should find a new table unless you're friends with that dealer... then in that case ask for 95% pen. that is what i doEasyRhino said:However, having individual casino employees get on to you can be a bad thing, all it takes is one narc to ruin everything. Kind of like a game of russian roulette, and each employee that thinks you're up to something is a bullet.
BJApprentice21 - you must not have read this entire thread. I actually feel the exact opposite. I think EasyRhino's thread just shows how difficult it is to make a profit counting cards. He started with $500 and built it up to as high as 40k i think but 32k of that was won through bonus whoring, not from blackjack. He has also been on a terrible 6 month loosing/neutral streak which really speaks to the ups, downs, and uncertainty involved in the game. I dont know about you but being able to place $500 max bets and only be up $6000 or so from card counting would be pretty discouraging to me. I give Easy a lot of credit for grinding out the tough times. Based on the number of hours he seems to put in i would guess he is approaching 2 standard deviations below his expected value, which is pretty unfortunate.BJApprentice21 said:Man, this is a real motivating thread. To me, it proves that with practice, dedication and know how in AP anyone can render the casinos helpless.
You started with $500 (then got real lucky that you caught the good end of the variance early because your bets were risky), and now you have 37k! I know you had a nice 6k BR boost, but still...you turned that into 37k.
Now, your talking about $2,000 losses like its change you'd give to a bum at the corner store. Not only that, but despite your losses in the thousands in any given session, you stick with it and end up winning most of it back or even come out ahead...takes balls and confidence in your craft to do that. Not to mention knowing your craft.
IMO this is more than simply luck. Your skills as an AP must be damn good, and I'm now motivated more than ever to practice. I'm not expecting the same results (that quickly anyway), but I will be playing smart with minimal RoR involved and proper bet spreads because after seeing what you've done with a high RoR to start with (I assume...at least it was higher than I'd be comfortable with)...I can only imagine the possibilities playing strategically from the get go with AP mastery so to speak.
True motivation.
-Apprentice.
mjbballar23 said:BJApprentice21 - you must not have read this entire thread. I actually feel the exact opposite. I think EasyRhino's thread just shows how difficult it is to make a profit counting cards. He started with $500 and built it up to as high as 40k i think but 32k of that was won through bonus whoring, not from blackjack. He has also been on a terrible 6 month loosing/neutral streak which really speaks to the ups, downs, and uncertainty involved in the game. I dont know about you but being able to place $500 max bets and only be up $6000 or so from card counting would be pretty discouraging to me. I give Easy a lot of credit for grinding out the tough times. Based on the number of hours he seems to put in i would guess he is approaching 2 standard deviations below his expected value, which is pretty unfortunate.
Never the less i really do enjoy reading how Easy started out as a $5 minimum player and has now worked up to a $25 minimum player all through AP, not necessarily blackjack.
Yikes, I'm sorry. If anything, I would think this thread would drive home how counting cards with any sort of a profit motive isn't really a good idea.BJApprentice21 said:Man, this is a real motivating thread.
The saga continues.....Easy's ecapades are far from over. Starting from his humble beginnings and having walked two miles each way to school in knee-deep snow, he eventually worked his way through high school and finally into college. Now, at the top of the world having become an accountant in a California company and a county class AP. One could only wish to emulate his life's story.BJApprentice21 said:Man, this is a real motivating thread. To me, it proves that with practice, dedication and know how in AP anyone can render the casinos helpless.
You started with $500 (then got real lucky that you caught the good end of the variance early because your bets were risky), and now you have 37k! I know you had a nice 6k BR boost, but still...you turned that into 37k.
Now, your talking about $2,000 losses like its change you'd give to a bum at the corner store. Not only that, but despite your losses in the thousands in any given session, you stick with it and end up winning most of it back or even come out ahead...takes balls and confidence in your craft to do that. Not to mention knowing your craft.
IMO this is more than simply luck. Your skills as an AP must be damn good, and I'm now motivated more than ever to practice. I'm not expecting the same results (that quickly anyway), but I will be playing smart with minimal RoR involved and proper bet spreads because after seeing what you've done with a high RoR to start with (I assume...at least it was higher than I'd be comfortable with)...I can only imagine the possibilities playing strategically from the get go with AP mastery so to speak.
True motivation.
-Apprentice.
Depends on which clubs I go to. But that would be inappropriate to discuss here.bj bob said:a very happy ending.:devil:
Yeah, I hear you, dude. Mom might be POS.as we speak.EasyRhino said:Depends on which clubs I go to. But that would be inappropriate to discuss here.
Ok I wasnt sure exactly what his max bet was but with a 40k bankroll you should be able to push out some large max bets. i guess i thought that he played more than 5 hours a week so his results may not be that far below EV but what i was trying to point out was that his bankroll has been stalled for the last several months. Also i was not saying that blackjack is tough to beat, just that it is tough to consistantly make a profit as EasyRhino's currently loosing streak clearly shows.bluewhale said:I think you got his bets wrong. i'm pretty sure he doesn't bet 500/hand even now. I don't think he is really significantly below expected because a lot of play came from low limit play. Correct me if i'm wrong ER.
and at BJApprentice21... beating BJ is really not that tough. learn basic strategy. do deck countdowns. spend some time getting someone to deal to you on a kitchen table and then get out there and start playing. Not to take away from ER, but his skill is perserverence, not exceptional skills at blackjack. Unlike a lot of the people who get into blackjack, ER actually goes out there and plays blackjack instead of just talking about it. Don't underestimate this, getting out there and putting out the +EV bets is the only way you're gonna come out ahead.... this is the main reason we all are involved with the game.
is there any chance you are going to team up with anyone ER? cause IMO 21 is a team sport. playing it solo is way too swingy.... as you well know you can go for months at a stretch and still be down easily. my team has has NEVER had a losing multi-day trip over our 4 trips so far. at first i thought it was mainly luck. but now i realize that the odds of u finishing up after playing 100 hrs are actually pretty good.EasyRhino said:Depends on which clubs I go to. But that would be inappropriate to discuss here.
I couldn't agree with you more. A BS player flat-betting $200 without counting for 16700 hands would still be well within 1 SD and make $5K.mjbballar23 said:I actually feel the exact opposite. I think EasyRhino's thread just shows how difficult it is to make a profit counting cards.... but being able to place $500 max bets and only be up $6000 or so from card counting would be pretty discouraging to me.
To be frank, this is becoming slightly annoying. There can be individual sessions where someone flat betting $200 can win or lose $5000, because I've had online sessions where flat-betting $20 has caused swings of greater than $500. Hell, just last month, over 400 hands of $10 BJ, I had a balance whipsaw from $400, up to $600, down to $200, and back to $400 before I was done. Add a zero to the bets, and you're talking some significant swings.Kasi said:I couldn't agree with you more. A BS player flat-betting $200 without counting for 16700 hands would still be well within 1 SD and make $5K.
I would love to know what system can show an EV of $30/hr and still lose 5K in 2 hours. What's that mean - your avg bet was $30 with a 1% adv?
i recently lost 5k flat betting $50/hand over 100k wagering.EasyRhino said:To be frank, this is becoming slightly annoying. There can be individual sessions where someone flat betting $200 can win or lose $5000, because I've had online sessions where flat-betting $20 has caused swings of greater than $500. Hell, just last month, over 400 hands of $10 BJ, I had a balance whipsaw from $400, up to $600, down to $200, and back to $400 before I was done. Add a zero to the bets, and you're talking some significant swings.
I think you should seriously reconsider how much you tip. I only tip at the end of a shoe. and even then only if i win. This is taking a huge chunk out of your hourly. Also i think your RoR is MUCH bigger than you think it is because of the tipping (and other factors you mentioned). You calculated your ramp based on ideal factors and came up with a $93/100 win rate correct? However since your actual win rate is approx a third of that your advantage is much lower than you used to calculate your ramp. Which means your RoR is a lot higher and you are probably doing some serious overbetting.EasyRhino said:2D game, H17 DAS, no surrender. Using reko with indices. Bet ramp was $50-$100-$150-$200-$300. Penetration is assumed to be 66% (because a dealer told me that policy was to cut off 35 cards at this place, and my eyes guessed the pen was at least that good).
Plug all that into powersim, with a $36000 bankroll (which would have been my bankroll at that moment) and you get a win rate of $93 per 100 hands, a score of 39.9, and a ROR of 4.6%.
I played for one hour and 40 minutes. My tip rate is about $20 / 100 hands, although that session I think I tipped $20 during the entire session.
Great, that's the chalkboard version, but here's where reality enters the fray and confuses the issue:
- Playing some heads up, and some with one other player, how does that affect the speed?
- Game slowdown from flirting with the dealer and BS'ing with the floorman.
- The unknown effect of mistakes. I mean, I didn't catch myself making any mistakes, but that's always hard to do, isn't it?
- Sometimes not lowering my bet after a win, and sometimes betting bigger off the top (especially if the last shoe ended with a big bet win).
- The effect of other players at the table on penetration and betting cover (not an issue this particular session due to light crowding).
- Effect of spreading to multiple hands (not an issue this session)
- Three bathroom/phone breaks during negative counts.
- Played a couple of obvious negative indices (13v2, 12v4) when called for.
- Once in a rare while "chipping up" bets in a super high count, only after a win.
- Split tens at least once.
- Sometimes tipping less if a BJ is a min bet, or if I end up taking even money on it.
- Doubled down 10v10 on at least two occasions when it wasn't called for, as well as several instances of standing 16v10.
- A single interaction play with another player at the table.
None of these things are readiliy quantifiable, at least not to me. And I'm okay with that. But if I subtract the tipping expense, and subtract for cover and mistakes, and assume 100 hands/hour, then $30/hour felt like a nice conservative estimate for a win rate. Plus, a lot of the other local DD games have bad penetration. But still, it's more than I make in my day job, so that ain't too shabby.
Cool - that's what I call a plan and a diary entry. Nice going. At least you have something to compare to.EasyRhino said:Just for and giggles, let's break down a recent session of mine:
Wow that's some pretty heavy cover, not lowering a bet after a win! Especially since statistically the count will go down after you win a hand. It would take a really profitable game (on the order of a single deck game) to justify that. You might want to work on some other kind of cover act that will allow you to drop a bet after a win.EasyRhino said:... I was probably down about $5k at the nadir, but one good high count, and one crazy winning streak when I had a $100 bet out (and couldn't lower it due to the win streak), helped a little bit....
Yeah, it's only something I occasionally do. And even if I do it, I'll cheat by "chipping down", or taking any opportunity if the chips get stacked funny, or after a double down, to drop the bet, seemingly forgetting what I had bet before. In the partcular instance of the streak mentioned above, it was a 2-unit bet, I was winning without even have to take a card, so there was very little activity on my part. After the fifth or so win, it would have looked weird to drop the bet.Automatic Monkey said:Wow that's some pretty heavy cover, not lowering a bet after a win!
I'll take a closer look at my tipping policy. Tipping at the end of shoes won't work in a doubledeck game, but I get your drift.bluewhale said:I think you should seriously reconsider how much you tip. I only tip at the end of a shoe. and even then only if i win... You calculated your ramp based on ideal factors and came up with a $93/100 win rate correct? However since your actual win rate is approx a third of that your advantage is much lower than you used to calculate your ramp. Which means your RoR is a lot higher and you are probably doing some serious overbetting.