MIT Blackjack Team Operation Manual!!!

RJT

Well-Known Member
shadroch said:
I don't know why you have a bug up your ass, nor do I really care.
The poster, whomever they were, posted because they were trying to communicate something. Their attempt was an utter failure. Anything else is just noise.
No bug and ass combination - just being direct.
I disagree completely with you on this topic - but what'll we'll do is ask Ken to get everyone to submit government approved ID if they want to post on the site? That was you can be sure about who everyone is - that is you'll know yourself and no-one else will be here.

RJT.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
RJT said:
No bug and ass combination - just being direct.
I disagree completely with you on this topic - but what'll we'll do is ask Ken to get everyone to submit government approved ID if they want to post on the site? That was you can be sure about who everyone is - that is you'll know yourself and no-one else will be here.
RJT.
I completely agree with shad, RJT, I think you are just being ridiculous on this point. Of course message boards are anonymous, but that changes when someone posts publically claiming to be a well known figure such as an MIT team member. They have chosen to take the anonymity out of it or are just pulling our leg. This person may very well be who they claim to be, but when someone post out of the blue, claiming to be someone known, they have to expect people to be skeptical. If they have something to share, why have they not posted before?? If this person is who they say, I'm sure we would all be interested in hearing from her. Ken would surely welcome her as a chat guest. Quite frankly I am as skeptical of this as if Revere or Uston all of the sudden posted. And you strenuously defending such this poster, either are very gullible, or are a party to this hoax or have knowledge that we don't confiming this person's claim, in which case you should share.
 
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RJT

Well-Known Member
kewljason said:
I completely agree with shad, RJT, I think you are just being ridiculous on this point. Of course message boards are anonymous, but that changes when someone posts publically claiming to be a well known figure such as an MIT team member. They have chosen to take the anonymity out of it or are just pulling our leg. This person may very well be who they claim to be, but when someone post out of the blue, claiming to be someone known, they have to expect people to be skeptical. If they have something to share, why have they not posted before?? If this person is who they say, I'm sure we would all be interested in hearing from her. Ken would surely welcome her as a chat guest. Quite frankly I am as skeptical of this as if Revere or Uston all of the sudden posted. And you strenuously defending such this poster, either are very gullible, or are a party to this hoax or have knowledge that we don't confiming this person's claim, in which case you should share.
Not party and no extra knowledge - i could make an educated guess but that's all it would be.
My point still stands however - what would this person have to do to convince you? If they are still an active player are they honestly going to be prepared to post their credentials for you? The information that she posted i've been told before by other source, which make her seem more credible. But let's be honest - there are people round here who question if the MIT team was even profitable and when you're not going to take information from people who you can identify and have well established publically know credentials, why would you ever believe someone's whose identity you can't 100% confirm?
You can either take the information given as what it is - even if you take it with a pinch of salt - or question it demanding legitimization that you are never going to receive. I doubt anyone could or would ever provide the proof your asking for. There's nothing in it for them.

RJT.
 
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shadroch

Well-Known Member
RJT said:
I could hazard a guess at who the poster might be and if right they probably know more about this topic than all but a few others.
But if your skeptical - ask her some questions. It usually doesn't take all that long to split the people who pretend they know everything and those that actually do know what they're talking about.

RJT.

By your own post, wouldn't the fact the person disappeared without any proof they actually knew what they were posting about tend to put them into the first grouping?
Why are you refering to the poster as a she?
 

RJT

Well-Known Member
shadroch said:
By your own post, wouldn't the fact the person disappeared without any proof they actually knew what they were posting about tend to put them into the first grouping?
Why are you refering to the poster as a she?
LADYluckbj - i know it's not confirmation, but i could think of at least one prominent female player of the team and the name does hint at it.
Have you never noticed how few pros actually post online? I'm not one. Bojack, ECAA a couple of others on this board, but honestly i don't know enough about these posters to say for sure one way or another (although their posts do stand out a mile). What i've realised posting online is that very few of the top rung players can be bother posting online and when they do they often only make one or two posts when they're bored then disappear. This fits a profile.
I'm not arguing one way or another - believe what you like it makes little to no difference to me. What i'm trying to point out is that the level of evidence that you would require to substantiate such a claim is more than ANY poster online is every going to give you, whether they are who they claim to be or not. Yet you are likely believe information given to you on other topics online and likely to require far less proof of the knowledge of the poster and often what you end up believing is far more damaging than what llbj posted - which is all but inconsequential to all but those historians that are interested.
Put more simply - i find it ammusing the levels of evidence required for some statements when so much else is simpley accepted.

RJT.
 
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kewljason said:
Hate to be the voice of skepticism, but... this person shows up, first post ever, using the phrase "our player manual" and we are just suppossed to accept that they were a MIT team player?
Yeah, I'll buy! :rolleyes:

Playing on an AP team is like being in the Mafia, in that when someone goes around publicly claiming they are... they're not.
 
QFIT said:
This isn't far off. I designed the table formats at a "gentleman's club" and wrote them on scraps of paper. And there are details that I didn't include in the parables chapter to keep the book reasonably "polite."

And incidentally, I do hold a co-patent based on a discussion and scribbling on napkins at a NY restaurant.
With all due respect to CV, I certainly hope your stripper looked a lot better than Cassie. Gaunt and crew-cut??? :confused:
 

ExhibitCAA

Well-Known Member
kewl says: "message boards are anonymous, but that changes when someone posts publically claiming to be a well known figure such as an MIT team member."

There were many MIT members over the years, and most of them are not individually well-known. Therefore, posting (anonymously at that!) as one of them would not be much of a boast, and though the post defends the record of the MIT ventures, the post doesn't look boast-motivated to me.

kewl says: "when someone post out of the blue, claiming to be someone known, they have to expect people to be skeptical."

The poster isn't claiming to be someone known. The poster simply claimed to be a member of the former MIT team. That's not a big deal. There are quite a few ex-MIT players running around the casinos still and also running around the Web sites.

kewl says: "If they have something to share, why have they not posted before?? If this person is who they say, I'm sure we would all be interested in hearing from her. Ken would surely welcome her as a chat guest. Quite frankly I am as skeptical of this as if Revere or Uston all of the sudden posted."

Believe it or not, Ed Thorp has posted once in a blue moon on bj21. There are a number of misconceptions related to these boards. First, the boards are not indispensable, and in fact, most pros are not active participants here. MANY pros do not even read these boards. Some pros are not even aware of the existence of these boards. Most of my own teammates do not even lurk on these boards, and question/criticize my extensive participation here. Second, when pros do participate, it is not usually out of a general desire to "contribute." The occasional post by the lurking pro is usually motivated by: (1) boredom [Wheelchair goes through phases where he gets bored, rediscovers the boards, participates for a few days, then gets bored of the boards, then disappears for another few years], (2) disinformation, or an attempt to divert a thread away from a sensitive topic, (3) a need to correct the historical record.

Many times I have sat watching a thread develop, but then can't help but jump in because someone makes a gross misstatement of the historical record (such as "Grosjean was backroomed while playing BJ at Caesars"). I consider it likely that the ex-MIT players cringe when reading parts of the BDtH books, watching "21," and reading these boards, where misconceptions are rampant and most of what is written is based on speculation by those who have no first-hand knowledge. I don't find it at all strange that an ex-MIT player would come out of the woodwork to make a post to clarify some issues. The reason these people show up with new accounts is often because they don't even read the boards, but get tipped off by a friend/teammate who does.

None of the specific information in the post makes me question the author's credibility. For instance, I certainly think that in practice, comps would have kept expenses low. While comps accrue to the name of the BP, it is common on my own crew for the BP to get a room for the spotter (at a casino played on a previous trip). The post contained no voodoo, no advocacy of a bogus playing system, no flames, no attacks on another poster.

Skepticism is always healthy here, and we probably won't know one way or another, but if forced to bet, I'd put my money on "Real Deal."
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
I respectfully disagree with your assesment ECAA. You state that none of the specific information in the post makes me question the author's credibility. What specific Information?? I see nothing new that I didn't already know. The Information on the perspective and comps was covered in great detail in the History Channel documentary and to a lesser extend in each of the books, although more so in Breaking Vegas.

You say you dont find it all that strange that an ex-MIT player would come out of the woodwork to clarify some issues. What issues needed clarifying and how did they do so?

You give three reasons that would motivate the lurking pro to post. #3 the need to correct the historical record. I just don't see where that was done nor needed to be done. #2 disinformation or an attempt to divert a thread away from a sensitive topic. That doesn't appear to be the case. #1 Boredom. I suppose this could be the case, but as you stated, we probably won't know one way or the other.
 

ExhibitCAA

Well-Known Member
kewl says: "I respectfully disagree with your assesment ECAA. You state that none of the specific information in the post makes me question the author's credibility. What specific Information?? I see nothing new that I didn't already know."

Not everybody has seen the History Channel documentaries as you have. The author added information that was not in THIS THREAD, to a target audience that probably did not see the History Channel documentaries. I have been featured in some TV pieces myself, and I haven't even seen the broadcasts. I am certainly unaware of much of the MIT history, and found LadyLuck's post informative.

To the extent the information in the post agrees with the History Channel, you interpret that as a sign that the poster could be any phony who just watches TV. Could be, but it also suggests someone who wants to disseminate the same accurate information that the History Channel got from actual participants on the MIT teams, as opposed to the baseless speculation of Internet posters.

kewl: "What issues needed clarifying and how did they do so? .. You give three reasons that would motivate the lurking pro to post. #3 the need to correct the historical record. I just don't see where that was done nor needed to be done."

Are we reading the same thread? There were at least three major issues that the poster clarified/defended. First, many posters were speculating that Mike Aponte or John Chang provided permission for the WGPC to post the excerpts from the manual. Others were speculating that there is no copyright protection because the document was basically a prospectus widely distributed for the purpose of soliciting investors. LadyLuck basically said that regardless of the copyright legalities, if WGPC in fact got permission from an ex-player, this permission was in violation of that player's agreement with the team to keep the information proprietary.

More importantly, two posters sharply criticized the manuals provision for $250k/yr in expenses, and concluded that this was one factor in the failure of the MIT ventures. moo321 said: "After reading it, I can see why they failed:
1. $250k a year in overhead." LadyLuck refutes moo321's statement that the ventures "failed," by contributing that investors earned 100% per year and players also made a comfortable hourly earn.

LadyLuck also refutes that excessive overhead was a problem, by clarifying that though the manual may have allowed for $250k/yr in expenses, actual expenses were low due to comps. moo321 says: "I would never incur overhead; 250k is just unconsionable." shadroch then agrees that he was "taken aback" by the same things. LadyLuck explained from her own personal experience (if you believe she is who she says she is, and I do) that expenses weren't a problem, as opposed to the speculation of those whose only "knowledge" of the MIT history is a few-page excerpt of a manual posted on the Internet.

(Even if you were to conclude that LadyLuck is a phony, where does that lead? Usually, the conclusion of the poster's phoniness is then used to question the accuracy of the actual information--but here you say you don't disagree with the information. So you still think this is just a way that some phony can boast of having played for the MIT team? And in light of the 2008 post on a different Web site, you still think so?)
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
Three quick points:

P1: The piece is a clear violation of copyright, and I see nothing to doubt that for one second.

P2: As for if the 'ladyluck' poster is "real," I dislike speculation when I do not have enough info for a determination. Take the post with many grains of salt and use it in that manner.

P3: The piece is at min an excerpt, and could even be modified. Draw no conclusions on the actions, efficacy or morality of the teams by this piece. One of the problems with piracy.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
Somebody used the name Lady Luck on a website. Another poster uses the name LadyLuckBJ posts a year and a half later on a different website, and we should assume 1) its the same person and 2) they are telling the truth.
Okay.

Just for the record- I never concluded anything about what caused the failure of the MIT teams, mainly because as far as I know they were successful.
The picture painted by what is supposed to be a prospectus to investors and LLBJs description of the team are very much at odds.
 

kewljason

Well-Known Member
I stand corrected ECAA, I did overlook moo321's post. Ladyluck could have been refuting that post.

I would like to point out that I never concluded that Ladyluck was a "phony". I simply pointed out that I am skeptical of a poster that no one is familar with suddenly showing up after what 10, 15 years claiming to be an ex-MIT member.

In the History Channel documentary Andy Anderson explains how he came into possession of the player's manual. I would think an ex team member would know that.
 

MAZ

Well-Known Member
Alright guys stop with the friggin nonsense. Who cares who this poster is. I know for a fact its not LC if thats what the consensus is thinking. Besides the information given is not detrimental in anyway playing wise, its not going to give up any deep dark secrets to the powers that be. Its all generic textbook formulas and team specs, no big deal. This worrying about who this supposed "lady" poster is a joke. For all those concerned read this exerpt and take it for what it is, not a hell of a lot. Now when I played on the team that didn't fail there was a much different system in place, thats right you you heard me, I. No go on post for days about that. Nonsense.
 
shadroch said:
Somebody used the name Lady Luck on a website. Another poster uses the name LadyLuckBJ posts a year and a half later on a different website, and we should assume 1) its the same person and 2) they are telling the truth.
Okay.

Just for the record- I never concluded anything about what caused the failure of the MIT teams, mainly because as far as I know they were successful.
The picture painted by what is supposed to be a prospectus to investors and LLBJs description of the team are very much at odds.
It says they give their players 1099's. Would you accept a 1099 from a blackjack team? Tricky stuff. I think I'd rather take my chances without the IRS being alerted to what's up.
 

Pro21

Well-Known Member
Automatic Monkey said:
It says they give their players 1099's. Would you accept a 1099 from a blackjack team? Tricky stuff. I think I'd rather take my chances without the IRS being alerted to what's up.
Of course employees don't want 1099s, but if you are running a multi-million dollar business you don't want to mess with the IRS.
 
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