New to counting, my story

[21forme]

NIghtshifter - it would be nice if you used some paragraph spaces on longish posts. Much easier to read.

 

[BoSox]

NIghtshifter - it would be nice if you used some paragraph spaces on longish posts. Much easier to read.

Come on 21forme, who cares? We have someone giving inside knowledge from the other side of the tables, a welcome addition.

 

[KewlJ]

I gotta say, I completely agree with Bosox. While Nightshifter's posts are difficult to read (I suspect that is a result of posting from his phone), I want to read everything he has to say. At first I was a little hesitent about Nightshifter. As time goes on, I am finding him more and more credible .

The phrase "the counter would unknowingly be betting into a false count" strikes me as just the kind of terminology the casino industry would use, as they "scheme" against us.

 

[21forme]

Come on 21forme, who cares?

Bosox, calm down. I wasn't critical or insulting. I was making a suggestion. He's a new forum member, and going forward, his posts would be much easier reading with appropriate spacing. Suggestion made. That's all.

 

[Midwest Player]

Question for Nightshifter. I know of several casinos where they don't wash the cards. They just shuffle them and deal. Most of the time it starts off really bad. Once in a while it might start off good. Is there a reason they don't wash the cards. If the table starts dumping they will change the cards and almost all of the time the table is worse off after they change the cards.

 

[BoSox]

Only on single deck... At the 2 Deck tables, chances are a counter would be unknowingly betting into a false count if the 10s are behind the cut card.... Learning to recognize something isn't right and leave at that particular table takes experience as KewlJ mentioned

Nightshifter, thanks for the answer. The one thing I do possess is very strong instincts and will recognize when something is not right. I always watch a shuffle closely to see if there is anything obvious out of the ordinary. I now only play part-time but have many years of experience to reflect on.

 

[BoSox]

. KewlJ did bring up some very important issues with the ASMs that really need to be addressed by the community IMHO.

Nightshifter, do you yourself have any factual knowledge, other than sample sizes that may be too small and are considered by some as speculating that these type of machines has been used dishonestly?

PS: Be careful how you answer the question as we have a snake in the grass lying in wait to condemn anyone who cannot fully back up his words.

 

[Nightshifter]

Question for Nightshifter. I know of several casinos where they don't wash the cards. They just shuffle them and deal. Most of the time it starts off really bad. Once in a while it might start off good. Is there a reason they don't wash the cards. If the table starts dumping they will change the cards and almost all of the time the table is worse off after they change the cards.

If the cards are in a predetermined order e.g., new deck order or an order specifically set by the house, not only will this wash away a deck that becomes mathematically random percentage wise (meaning a 10 value card will fall ~ within every 3-4 cards on average) but keep the table in a negative bias against the BS/AP player. Now, I don't mean negative bias as in a negative TC, but keeping the cards in groups that subvert BS thus favoring the house. Some casinos don't and will not show you the cards when they bring out new decks or open another table.... Not that all the cards aren't there or they're gaffed with extra low cards, but are grouped in a way that work in conjunction with the ASM to prolong this subversion to the BS/AP players. Now this doesn't happen on every table, but it happens more often when the house is busy -- usually on weekends. That's when they are able to rake in the most money with the least effort. I know because I looked at them myself when in actuality, the dealer is not suppose to do that. Rather than some cards being randomly scattered around 6-8 decks, they are grouped together. For instance A,A,A,5,5,5,5,A,A,A,2,2,2,4,4,A … anyone can see that's not normal and if the ASM is bricking the decks... LOOK OUT!

Again, this is all based on certain ASMs that the casino is using. As you all know already, there are different types of ASMs and different ways of doing such things. I remember a pit boss telling me, "...that's one way of doing it, although that's the old way..." in the context of technology which means not so long ago

 

[Nightshifter]

Bosox, calm down. I wasn't critical or insulting. I was making a suggestion. He's a new forum member, and going forward, his posts would be much easier reading with appropriate spacing. Suggestion made. That's all.

Yes I'm on my iPhone...

 

[KewlJ]

As for ASMs used on 2D games (rather odd why they use an ASM on single and 2 deck games when the dealer can actually shuffle faster...),

Nightshifter, on another site that I participate on there has been some discussion of your posts. Someone raised a question regarding this particular statement. Can you clarify what you are saying here? You think a hand shuffle is faster than the ASM, which shuffles during play, making the new cards immediately available?

 

[Luis Veiga]

Leaving at -1 is not a 'full wong' as you put it. Entering in on a positive and never playing a negative count is what a 'full wong' is or as I like to say 'pure wonging'

There is some topic with more detailed information about this type of bet: full wong?

 

[Drake7]

Nightshifter, on another site that I participate on there has been some discussion of your posts. Someone raised a question regarding this particular statement. Can you clarify what you are saying here? You think a hand shuffle is faster than the ASM, which shuffles during play, making the new cards immediately available?

I feel like this topic deserves its own thread. If anyone plays in stl there is one particular casino I keep getting a super odd feeling about. Just really strange things happening on the double deck tables.

 

[Nightshifter]

I feel like this topic deserves its own thread. If anyone plays in stl there is one particular casino I keep getting a super odd feeling about. Just really strange things happening on the double deck tables.

Nightshifter, on another site that I participate on there has been some discussion of your posts. Someone raised a question regarding this particular statement. Can you clarify what you are saying here? You think a hand shuffle is faster than the ASM, which shuffles during play, making the new cards immediately available?

Yes... Don't forget, there's downtime when changing the decks with the ASM. Next time count the seconds that elapse from the last card put in the discard holder, to the first card dealt from the ready deck. If you're a fast shuffler, like a seasoned dealer usually is, you'll agree with what I've said. Now I"m putting aside other variables like having a conversation with the players, and stalling the game for whatever reason there may be....

You plug the shoe (if that's house rules) then press the button on the machine. You wait for it to come up (if there's no malfunction), switch decks, reset the machine and proceed. Maybe a green dealer would be slow, but as a seasoned dealer, I can X the decks, riffle, split then riffle once more in the same amount of time no problem... esp. single deck. Why would the casino spend a considerable amount of money to mount 2 Deck games, when the amount of time between changing decks using an ASM or hand shuffle is negligible? As for 6 - 8 decks games it's a plus (in more ways that one), but for single and 2 Deck? Legally speaking to deter shuffle trackers and to speed up post operations (like putting the cards in a new deck order which may or may not be done...) but also (off the record), putting the cards in a what they deem to be a "protective measure" to achieve a certain cadence that will subvert BS/AP playing upon their demand.

A little trick you can try (in some casinos) is accidently kick lose the plug that goes into the floor underneath the table (usually at third base), and this will cause the machine to malfunction so the dealer can't get the other decks. Usually the PB will declare a hand shuffle (unless he's wise about the plug) and this will break up any dealer biased patterns previously set forth by the ASM as long as the dealer isn't a sharpie

For those of you that don't know, and I'm sure most of you already do, is that there are sensors in the table for each betting square, that monitor your betting behavior.

 

[BoSox]

For those of you that don't know, and I'm sure most of you already do, is that there are sensors in the table for each betting square, that monitor your betting behavior.

I do not believe that is the case, as it was tried years ago with the Mind Play table set ups. I believe they ruled those illegal.

 

[johndoe]

Pretty sure that part was OK, it was calculating and displaying (to the house) the player advantage during the game based on card composition that was blatantly illegal. I'm not sure it was ever officially adjudicated though. Mostly these machines fell out of favor for other reasons if I remember right.

But they were never very widespread, nor are they used very often now. Very few tables track chips automatically.

 

[Nightshifter]

I do not believe that is the case, as it was tried years ago with the Mind Play table set ups. I believe they ruled those illegal.

Harrah's in Southern California employs it. You can even ask the pit boss and he'll tell you all about it if you want.... They use it to accurately rate a player

 

[Nightshifter]

Pretty sure that part was OK, it was calculating and displaying (to the house) the player advantage during the game based on card composition that was blatantly illegal. I'm not sure it was ever officially adjudicated though. Mostly these machines fell out of favor for other reasons if I remember right.

But they were never very widespread, nor are they used very often now. Very few tables track chips automatically.

This is true, but chip reading on the tables is making its way back into use in some casinos not only for rating players, but possibly to detect various types of cheating. For example, if a player decides to cap their bet after he received the cards, or use a counterfeit chip, this action would be detected. Speaking about down time, ask yourself another question. Why would a casino implement a system in which the dealer has to swipe a players card and type in the amount of your buy-in every time you sit down at a table. Doesn't this sort of contradict the use of ASMs to reduce down time when in fact they're just adding it back using this procedure?

 

[johndoe]

This is true, but chip reading on the tables is making its way back into use in some casinos not only for rating players, but possibly to detect various types of cheating. For example, if a player decides to cap their bet after he received the cards, or use a counterfeit chip, this action would be detected. Speaking about down time, ask yourself another question. Why would a casino implement a system in which the dealer has to swipe a players card and type in the amount of your buy-in every time you sit down at a table. Doesn't this sort of contradict the use of ASMs to reduce down time when in fact they're just adding it back using this procedure?

I've never seen a casino that did this. That's generally the job of the floor, not the dealer.

 

[KewlJ]

I have two casinos in my rotation that do this and it is the dealer that does so. Both started this in last year. My very first thought was "isn't this the floors job?"

 

[Nightshifter]

I have two casinos in my rotation that do this and it is the dealer that does so. Both started this in last year. My very first thought was "isn't this the floors job?"

Exactly…