questions about tipping dealers

[Blue Efficacy]

If there is a particularly special dealer (or a hot one), ill be more inclined to tip.

I don't understand why men are compelled to give free money to women simply for being attractive. If there is sex involved, that's one thing...

 

[ekimlacks]

You have it backwards,

It's the tipping that leads to the sex.:whip:

 

[JohnGalt1]

When I'm ahead, the count is high, and I've won a few hands in a row (because I'm a ploppy), I'll place a chip or two on top of my bet. The profits from that go to the dealer.

Of course if I have to double or split I have to, for example, play another $52 bet. If I win the dealer would get $4.

The dealer bet remains until I/we lose a hand.

The dealer can make a lot of money, and it only costs me the initial chip(s) if I win may hands in a row.

 

[moo321]

They are paid minimum wage because thats what they are worth. Im not saying that there is anything wrong with making minimum wage or being a dealer, but what am I tipping them for? All they are doing is dealing cards. The only reason a machine doesn't do it is because ploppies dont trust the casinos to automate the dealing (as of yet). If there is a particularly special dealer (or a hot one), ill be more inclined to tip. Tipping has become so customary in America that you aren't tipping for good service anymore, you are tipping to prevent bad service.

Now that I think about it, this is a combination of Steve Buschemi's argument in Reservoir Dogs and I think a comedian or something. Regardless, this is how I feel about tipping. Here comes the rampage...

You're tipping them because they work for tips. If the casino paid them a living wage, they wouldn't be able to give nearly the level of comps they do, or the mins would have to be higher, or the rules worse.

Look, I'm not saying you need to be tipping a green an hour. But there's no damn reason ANYONE on here can't afford $2 an hour.

Otherwise you're exploiting and pissing on someone who's often working for less than minimum wage at a **** job:

"Pay him his wages each day before sunset, because he is poor and is counting on it. Otherwise he may cry to the LORD against you, and you will be guilty of sin" (Deuteronomy 24:15)

I think it's a basic moral issue: don't exploit people.

 

[assume_R]

It's unfortunate that both restaurant owners and casinos can give an employee less than what that employee is "worth", because they expect the patrons to compensate for the difference by tipping. If tipping wasn't so customary then waiters and dealers would presumably be paid more $$ per hour by their employers. It's become so common to be expected as part of the employee's wage, which I don't really like because the only difference is the employers get to pay their employees less, and a patron's meal, or entertainment, actually costs more than what is "listed".

 

[moo321]

It's unfortunate that both restaurant owners and casinos can give an employee less than what that employee is "worth", because they expect the patrons to compensate for the difference by tipping. If tipping wasn't so customary then waiters and dealers would presumably be paid more $$ per hour by their employers. It's become so common to be expected as part of the employee's wage, which I don't really like because the only difference is the employers get to pay their employees less, and a patron's meal, or entertainment, actually costs more than what is "listed".

It is messed up, I agree. But, unfortunately, it is what it is, and if you don't tip, it means someone won't be able to earn a decent wage.

The only way to change it would be to change the minimum wage laws, and I'm not even sure how much that would do.

 

[aslan]

They are paid minimum wage because thats what they are worth.

Fact: During average good times, dealers at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas make about $90,000 a year, tips included.

 

[SleightOfHand]

You're tipping them because they work for tips. If the casino paid them a living wage, they wouldn't be able to give nearly the level of comps they do, or the mins would have to be higher, or the rules worse.

Look, I'm not saying you need to be tipping a green an hour. But there's no damn reason ANYONE on here can't afford $2 an hour.

Otherwise you're exploiting and pissing on someone who's often working for less than minimum wage at a **** job:

"Pay him his wages each day before sunset, because he is poor and is counting on it. Otherwise he may cry to the LORD against you, and you will be guilty of sin" (Deuteronomy 24:15)

I think it's a basic moral issue: don't exploit people.

It's not ok to exploit people, but its ok to exploit the games they offer? Or even within the game of poker, the point IS to exploit other people's weakness. Hell, now that I think about it, life is FULL of exploiting people. We have needs and desires and we do what we can do obtain those things, almost always with as little effort as possible. The casinos are exploiting the dealers, not me. The casinos are doing what they feel is best for business and the dealers are... just taking it? If they had more value, they can get a job somewhere else.

I have worked at a restaurant as a host, who makes even less money than the waiters, and trust me, most of these people don't deserve tips. They smile in your face, and behind your back criticize you for whatever reason. That seems to me like they are exploiting me; trying to maximize their tips with their false smiles and empty compliments.

As for the Bible quote, no offense, I dont care if I'm guilty of "sin". As far as I can tell, my body is going to decompose into the ground and that will be the end of it. But lets not turn this into a religious debate.

It's unfortunate that both restaurant owners and casinos can give an employee less than what that employee is "worth", because they expect the patrons to compensate for the difference by tipping. If tipping wasn't so customary then waiters and dealers would presumably be paid more $$ per hour by their employers. It's become so common to be expected as part of the employee's wage, which I don't really like because the only difference is the employers get to pay their employees less, and a patron's meal, or entertainment, actually costs more than what is "listed".

I wonder who's fault it is for tipping to be so common (seriously). Is it the employees that gets pissed off when they don't get tips (turning tips into a prevention of bad service) or the patrons that put down others for not tipping? Perhaps even the businesses so they have reason to reduce the wages.

It is messed up, I agree. But, unfortunately, it is what it is, and if you don't tip, it means someone won't be able to earn a decent wage.

The only way to change it would be to change the minimum wage laws, and I'm not even sure how much that would do.

Change the law, or remove it entirely? I always felt that people should be paid according to their value as defined by the market.

 

[SleightOfHand]

Fact: During average good times, dealers at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas make about $90,000 a year, tips included.

And perhaps they should. The people working at Caesar's are the better quality dealers. They worked hard to get where they are (perhaps some got in through connections) and that work is reflected in their income.

 

[aslan]

It is messed up, I agree. But, unfortunately, it is what it is, and if you don't tip, it means someone won't be able to earn a decent wage.

The only way to change it would be to change the minimum wage laws, and I'm not even sure how much that would do.

I had a dealer at a $25 table last week. He never shut up. He kept saying things like:

I win if you win.

Okay let's everybody win.

I want you to win.

The only disconnect was that the dealer was winning every friggin' hand, and the more he won, the more he kept up that inane banter.

I suggested to him that his words meant nothing, had nothing whatsoever to do with how the cards were running, and furthermore, there was nothing in his power he could do to change the cards for good or for bad.

He replied that all I'm trying to do is to get some positive energy going so that everyone can win some money.

I told him to keep his energy, it makes no difference to the cards.

He left after his replacement arrived, and magically, everyone began winning again. lol But the guy was irritating to no end. No, he did not get a tip, but others did, and it all goes into the same "kick."

 

[SleightOfHand]

I had a dealer at a $25 table last week. He never shut up. He kept saying things like:

I win if you win.

Okay let's everybody win.

I want you to win.

The only disconnect was that the dealer was winning every friggin' hand, and the more he won, the more he kept up that inane banter.

I suggested to him that his words meant nothing, had nothing whatsoever to do with how the cards were running, and furthermore, there was nothing in his power he could do to change the cards for good or for bad.

He replied that all I'm trying to do is to get some positive energy going so that everyone can win some money.

I told him to keep his energy, it makes no difference to the cards.

He left after his replacement arrived, and magically, everyone began winning again. lol But the guy was irritating to no end. No, he did not get a tip, but others did, and it all goes into the same "kick."

I really hate the pooling of tips. I don't quite understand why this is a good decision.

 

[aslan]

And perhaps they should. The people working at Caesar's are the better quality dealers. They worked hard to get where they are (perhaps some got in through connections) and that work is reflected in their income.

In Vegas, getting somewhere is very often associated with knowing someone. But, yes, good dealers deserve what they get. Maybe when I move out there, I'll take a job dealing, It appears more profitable than the player side of the table, and a whole lot less risky. If you like the social side of the game, dealing is the nuts. If you despise standing on your feet for long periods of time, counting is a lot more comfortable, although the hours are about the same for the same pay unless you have a great bankroll to work from.

 

[aslan]

I really hate the pooling of tips. I don't quite understand why this is a good decision.

It's just the way they do it. What can I say?

 

[wwcd]

In the world of pricing, I believe everything should have an asking price (unless it is in an auction). So, if I go to a restaurant, I should know what the restaurant's asking price is for the food, including the delivery, cleaning, order-taking, seating etc. If they want to charge me (even indirectly) a la carte for the food, service, delivery etc. (which is what is happening in today's world) then they should give me the option of taking the services I want and leaving the ones I don't want. For example if the food is 10 bucks and the expected delivery fee (tip) is 1.5 bucks, then I should be given the option of going and getting my own food from the delivery window and bring it to my table. If I don't have this freedom (hence the whole process is locked out from beginning to end), then I should be charged only one single fee for the whole process (in this case 11.50). Then the restaurant should pay whatever they want to their service workers.

Same thing applies to the resort fee bs in Vegas. If I have an additional charge for additional service then it should be a la carte (buy it or not buy it). If it is not a la carte (so I don't have the option of choosing), then the whole process should be priced as one single price. If that single price is 15 bucks higher than the advertised price, that's fine, at least I know the true asking price for the good/service I'm getting.

So, if I want to play blackjack and I am not allowed to deal my own cards to myself (although I would've loved it :grin, then it means the whole process is one single process. In other words playing blackjack and dealer dealing are not two a la carte offerings, but they're tied together. So, I should be getting one single price for the whole process. If it means the casino has to take surrender away, so be it. At least I know the true asking price for the service I am about to decide whether to buy or not.

If you leave the asking price open in an uncertain world, then you're bound to have a ton of uncertainties, misunderstandings, unfairnesses etc.

To come to our own subject: Do I tip dealers? I mostly don't, because of the reasons above. In addition to that, I hate to do something forcefully. Usually with tipping, words that are used are "you should, you're supposed to, you must etc". These words make me go mad, and I refuse tipping altogether in that case.

I sometimes find truly nice dealers, in which case I throw in a couple white chips. One example was a dealer at MGM Grand. She was the first dealer I saw, who knew perfect basic strategy. There were four ploppie chicks on the table, and two of us BS players. At one point I waved "stand" on my A7 against dealer's A, because I was busy hitting on one of the ploppie chicks :cool2:, instead of on my soft 18 (the chick was a soft 23 btw). This dealer not only knew it was an obvious hit, but also rechecked with me whether I wanted to stand. Then of course the whole BS chart came before my eyes and I hit the damn A7. So, I happily tipped this dealer. But I definitely refuse to tip as a form of wage for someone because of my "asking price" and "a la carteability" of goods/services theories.

 

[aslan]

In the world of pricing, I believe everything should have an asking price (unless it is in an auction). So, if I go to a restaurant, I should know what the restaurant's asking price is for the food, including the delivery, cleaning, order-taking, seating etc. If they want to charge me (even indirectly) a la carte for the food, service, delivery etc. (which is what is happening in today's world) then they should give me the option of taking the services I want and leaving the ones I don't want. For example if the food is 10 bucks and the expected delivery fee (tip) is 1.5 bucks, then I should be given the option of going and getting my own food from the delivery window and bring it to my table. If I don't have this freedom (hence the whole process is locked out from beginning to end), then I should be charged only one single fee for the whole process (in this case 11.50). Then the restaurant should pay whatever they want to their service workers.

Same thing applies to the resort fee bs in Vegas. If I have an additional charge for additional service then it should be a la carte (buy it or not buy it). If it is not a la carte (so I don't have the option of choosing), then the whole process should be priced as one single price. If that single price is 15 bucks higher than the advertised price, that's fine, at least I know the true asking price for the good/service I'm getting.

So, if I want to play blackjack and I am not allowed to deal my own cards to myself (although I would've loved it :grin, then it means the whole process is one single process. In other words playing blackjack and dealer dealing are not two a la carte offerings, but they're tied together. So, I should be getting one single price for the whole process. If it means the casino has to take surrender away, so be it. At least I know the true asking price for the service I am about to decide whether to buy or not.

If you leave the asking price open in an uncertain world, then you're bound to have a ton of uncertainties, misunderstandings, unfairnesses etc.

To come to our own subject: Do I tip dealers? I mostly don't, because of the reasons above. In addition to that, I hate to do something forcefully. Usually with tipping, words that are used are "you should, you're supposed to, you must etc". These words make me go mad, and I refuse tipping altogether in that case.

I sometimes find truly nice dealers, in which case I throw in a couple white chips. One example was a dealer at MGM Grand. She was the first dealer I saw, who knew perfect basic strategy. There were four ploppie chicks on the table, and two of us BS players. At one point I waved "stand" on my A7 against dealer's A, because I was busy hitting on one of the ploppie chicks :cool2:, instead of on my soft 18 (the chick was a soft 23 btw). This dealer not only knew it was an obvious hit, but also rechecked with me whether I wanted to stand. Then of course the whole BS chart came before my eyes and I hit the damn A7. So, I happily tipped this dealer. But I definitely refuse to tip as a form of wage for someone because of my "asking price" and "a la carteability" of goods/services theories.

Things are the way they are because that is the way they developed over time. I have been to some places (restaurants in grocery stores, for example Whole Foods and Wegman's) where it is posted, "No tipping." But for the rest, it is part of the price, and generally known, to tip a minimum of 15% for table service. If the service is especially good, one might tip 20% or more. But in no case (except lunch counters and joints with no table cloths in some instances) should one tip less than 15%. It is part of the price of the overall meal and not dependent on the quality of the service. I generally show my displeasure with the service by rendering a 15% bare minimum tip. Waiters may receive only $2 or $3 as a base wage, and the rest of their income is dependent on the tips they receive. In all my years as a salaried employee, I received a living wage whether I did a good job that day or not. I extend the same living wage concept to waiters, even on days they don't do such a good job. And for restaurants that don't serve good food, I generally don't complain; basically, I just don't go there again.

Now, for tipping blackjack dealers. That did not grow out of centuries of tradition so far as I know. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. I feel no obligation for tipping dealers whatsoever if I lose. If I win, I will generally throw something their way, usually not much, depending on the size of the win, but in part just to mimic the average ploppy. But no real service is provided by a dealer, other than performing their required job. I probably should not tip as much as I do, since nobody tips me when I lose. As for dealers who can be very entertaining, I believe that sometimes I am equally as entertaining, yet no one tips me. Because it has become customary to tip dealers, and because it is part of their income, I do feel pressed to tip some. But it is hard for me to equate a casino, which is out to separate as much money from me as possible, with a restaurant, whose primary concern is to please me with a good meal and pleasant surroundings and to provide me with value equal to the money they charge. Compared to ploppies I am stingy; but compared to many APs, I am probably tipping too much at times.

 

[shadroch]

Why do people spend paragraphs making excuses instead of simply saying they are cheap.
You want your waiter to be paid $50,000 a year by his employer so you don't have to tip, fine. Just be prepared to pay twice as much for your dinner.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

MYTH: Wait persons, among other tipped workers get paid substantially less.

FACT: In a few states (CA, MN, and a few others I believe) they do make at least minimum wage. Furthermore, those that don't, it is up to the employer to kick in to ensure the employee makes a minimum wage per hour worked, should the tips earned not be enough to cover it.

There are many people out there doing worse jobs than BJ dealers, for less pay. Frankly, tips should be done away with, and minimum wage should be $15 an hour.

This would also have the added bonus of ending the illegal immigration problem, as suddenly all available jobs provide liveable pay. All things being equal, employers would rather hire locals than illegals. Europe doesn't have an illegal immigration problem. Europe doesn't have the "tipping" problem. Europe also pays its menial workers considerably more than the US does.

Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

[shadroch]

Europe doesn't have an illegal immigration problem? Seriously?
Suppose every casino in Vegas decided today to pay every employee a minimum of $15 an hour, where would that money come from?

 

[SleightOfHand]

Why do people spend paragraphs making excuses instead of simply saying they are cheap.
You want your waiter to be paid $50,000 a year by his employer so you don't have to tip, fine. Just be prepared to pay twice as much for your dinner.

I never said I wasn't cheap. What I wrote was a reason for my "cheapness." If you want to give your money to someone, thats fine, there is nothing wrong with that as far as I am concerned. But don't think that you are better than me (not directed at anyone specific) because I don't give into sympathy or customs that in my opinion has turned into something negative. I also never said that waiters/dealers should be paid more, they should be paid however the market determines it. If they do indeed are required to be paid more and the casinos have to worsen the rules for it, fine. Maybe the people will stop going so often causing a decrease in overall income, causing an improvement in rules, creating a more balanced and fair result in the dealer's income and casino's rules. Maybe not and the rules will just suck. If that's the case, so be it. This is all really moot, as its not like our argument is going to change anything. I will keep being cheap and you will keep being a generous (or average, idk) tipper. Friends?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

It's unfortunate that both restaurant owners and casinos can give an employee less than what that employee is "worth", because they expect the patrons to compensate for the difference by tipping. If tipping wasn't so customary then waiters and dealers would presumably be paid more $$ per hour by their employers. It's become so common to be expected as part of the employee's wage, which I don't really like because the only difference is the employers get to pay their employees less, and a patron's meal, or entertainment, actually costs more than what is "listed".

On the other hand, it would be very difficult to provide enough servers in a restaurant without the tip system. A restaurateur cannot always anticipate how big a crowd he will have on any night, so he hires a sufficient number of servers for any crowd, and the harder they have to work, the more they get paid in tips. It's a lot like piecework, which is a really fair system. If the servers don't make much money due to a slow night, neither does the owner.

As an AP I'd rather tip dealers and have all the tables open than have the casino pay them $15 per hour and put as few dealers out there as possible. Unfortunately now in the Northeast they are doing both- not paying dealers and still closing any BJ table that isn't full. They only pay dealers $4 per hour and I'd be happy to pay the dealer's wage if they would send one out to me and give me a heads-up game whenever I want.