Real Pros?

[QFIT]

tell us more QFIT, please.

Sorry, unlike Stalker who likes to out AP's photos, license plates, descriptions, playing locations, etc.; that's info I won't post.

Frankly I find the entire discussion inappropriate.

 

[Chunky Yellow]

Sorry, unlike Stalker who likes to out AP's photos, license plates, descriptions, playing locations, etc.; that's info I won't post.

Frankly I find the entire discussion inappropriate.

Of course you find it inappropriate, Craps Master is reaming you a new asshole.

How laughable that every "reference" you note has something to sell.

Say Mr. Bigtime Gambler, put your money where your mouth is; I'm willing to wager 100k that Craps Master is not Radar. The redneck can hold the money in escrow. What say you?

You also continue to slander me without one ounce of proof, but of course that's expected from you. Probably haven't taken your meds yet...

 

[sagefr0g]

Sorry, unlike Stalker who likes to out AP's photos, license plates, descriptions, playing locations, etc.; that's info I won't post.

Frankly I find the entire discussion inappropriate.

right you are. but no i'm more interestted in your referance to Craps Master linked to a card counter catcher. that certainly would be relevant information that is worth discussing.

 

[QFIT]

right you are. but no i'm more interestted in your referance to Craps Master linked to a card counter catcher. that certainly would be relevant information that is worth discussing.

There are many that work both sides. I won't talk about them unless they hide the fact they work for the casinos. This one doesn't.

 

[sagefr0g]

There are many that work both sides. I won't talk about them unless they hide the fact they work for the casinos. This one doesn't.

hmm perhaps i'm jumping to conclusions here. so this is how Craps Master reaps huge ev ?

 

[QFIT]

hmm perhaps i'm jumping to conclusions here. so this is how Craps Master reaps huge ev ?

You are taking these people at their word Seriously, what about the ability to spout insults and invent multiple aliases gives you the confidence to assume any statements are true?

 

[sagefr0g]

You are taking these people at their word Seriously, what about the ability to spout insults and invent multiple aliases gives you the confidence to assume any statements are true?

in this thread a creditable poster contends that through homework it can be found that Craps Master can attain a huge edge on 6:5 blackjack. that there is a post somewhere wherein Craps Master explains how to do this.
i'm basing my guess as to how Craps Master can obtain such an edge on the credibility of the poster alluded to above and your statement that Craps Master is staked by a card counter catcher.
i'm just putting two and two together with out knowing if i'm adding apples to apples or apples to oranges.
but no the spouting is certainly no source of confidence.

 

[Chunky Yellow]

You are taking these people at their word Seriously, what about the ability to spout insults and invent multiple aliases gives you the confidence to assume any statements are true?

In AP circles, this is known as a classic example of the "John May Two-Step".

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...That's right. I say it's worthless. I haven't written a book on blackjack, and my name is not known throughout the industry on account of being published. I play cards for a living, at higher stakes and with a consistently bigger edge than anyone on that list (no less than half of whom are hacks, anyway), and I say your software is worthless. You can line up thirteen more authors, has beens, internet poseurs, and salesmen and tell me they also say your software is great, and I will continue to be unimpressed.


Fact: I know dozens of professional players, and not a single one of them has used your software to improve his game. You market a fantasy to recreationalists; the reality of professional advantage play is very different. What you do and what you've produced are in no way related to getting the money. If the people who frequent this site come here for professional opinion and perspective, then let it be known to them that I, Craps Master, think, in my professional opinion, that aspiring advantage players are better off (a) not listening to the advice of armchair players like you and (b) not purchasing your software....

The QFIT software is quite good. As it relates to counting, it allows me to easily compare the relative merits of different games and approaches, measure variance, generate indices for cover and profit, calculate strategies and EOR's for sidebets and blackjack derivatives, and generate ideal and cover-aware spreads. Those who don't want to use software for this are free to do it with pencil and paper if they wish.

The shuffle analysis part allows me to record shuffles in a standardized format and generate shuffle maps. My favorite feature is the ability to export shuffle transforms, in ordered-pair format, to my own Excel and BASIC routines where I can develop keycard and slug tracking methods and calculate their EV's and variances. It's very important to me to know these things in advance before I use a method in a casino or even practice it with cards.

All of these things are of value to me. I do not know if they would be of value to you. But I hear the next version of QFIT comes with something to make you a good holecarder. It's cigarettes, to stunt your growth! And the version after that is going to include a jar of Vaseline to help those who use certain other methods in the casino.

 

[ihate17]

And JoeV must be sorry he ever asked

I was wondering what constitutes being a professional advantage player. Do you have to do it as your profession or can you just approach it as if it was? Also how do you get into the circles of pro players? It seems as if they may have more info on the game than others but don't openly share it with just anybody. I'm not ready to join the ranks of the greats anytime soon, I'm just curious if I ever am, could I get in with the real pros to share in some privledged information. Or is that just a myth that the pros have more info than the rest of us?

Joe, your question was just a typical question someone new to this field might ask. The thread has zoomed (not drifted) from your questions.
I am bit a pro. I have been doing this for about 30 years and do believe I go about things as professionally as I can.
Some typical answers: A professional is one who does this for a living.
One need not be a professional in order to approach most things, including blackjack as a professional.
Pros and even knowledgable recreational players will have info on the game that they choose not to share. It is simply good business: A technique that works gets overexposed by too many people using it and the casinos will eventually catch on. A game where there might be positive expectation right at the shuffle, advertise it to this community and too many people will show up and burn out the game. Things like the names and casinos of weak dealers, results in the casinos re-training those dealers or firing them. AP's pro or not, just can not afford to share too much.
Many good players are very secretive, may have been burned by fellow AP's in the past and choose very carefully who they share anything with. They might approach you someday. You could take a chance and attend something like the Blackjack Ball, but do so in a decent disguise, and perhaps make a friend or two. You might gain something on forums such as this but that might be highly doubtful when it comes to getting in with pros.
You say you are not ready to join the ranks of pros yet. Perhaps someday you might be ready and some pro will witness it but before that do not expect anything.
ihate17

 

[Craps Master]

Actually, I have never claimed to be an expert.

Okay, good. Now we're getting somewhere. So you're not an expert and you don't play professionally. That's really all I've ever been saying about you as a person. It's hardly an insult; it's just fact. People should really be clear on this fact when they consider the merit of your advice and ideas.

Well, maybe to an attractive barmaid. But, unlike you, I don't bother making such claims in my posts. You claim I'm a hack. But then you claim Bryce Carlson, MIT Mike, Semyon Dukach, Arnold Snyder, Ken Smith, Donald Schlesinger, Kevin Blackwood, Michael Dalton, Ralph Stricker, Rick Blaine, George C., Anthony Curtis, Ian Andersen are hacks, has beens, internet poseurs, and salesmen. Sorry but I'll stay in that company instead of yours.

I told you I wouldn't be impressed if you lined up 13 more "experts," what makes you think I'm going to be impressed if you just keep listing the same 13? Yes, the vast majority of those people are hacks, has beens, internet poseurs, and salesmen. They are not working professionals, and their advice about whether software is useful or not to a working professional is suspect at best, and potentially harmful at worst. Much like the advice contained in some of their books.

Sorry, unlike Stalker who likes to out AP's photos, license plates, descriptions, playing locations, etc.; that's info I won't post.

Frankly I find the entire discussion inappropriate.

Face it man, you have no idea who you're dealing with. Here's a hint: I'm a professional player who doesn't like your software or the way you and many others try to represent yourselves as more authoritative than you really are online. Eh, I guess that doesn't narrow it down too much. That could be nearly any professional player.

There are many that work both sides. I won't talk about them unless they hide the fact they work for the casinos. This one doesn't.

Casinos can't afford me, or at least they don't want to. If they would pay me $500/hour, I'd consider going and working for them but, so far, not a single one has approached me with such an offer. Their loss, because I could save them hundreds or thousands of times the amount I charge them. But part of what makes advantage play so lucrative is the casinos' inability to be big picture thinkers or exercise anything along the lines of foresight, and so I figure they'll never hire anyone who would be an actual threat to advantage play, because they're not willing to pay enough. It's why they're staffed with incompetents at all levels.

 

[Craps Master]

The QFIT software is quite good. As it relates to counting, it allows me to easily compare the relative merits of different games and approaches, measure variance, generate indices for cover and profit, calculate strategies and EOR's for sidebets and blackjack derivatives, and generate ideal and cover-aware spreads. Those who don't want to use software for this are free to do it with pencil and paper if they wish.

The shuffle analysis part allows me to record shuffles in a standardized format and generate shuffle maps. My favorite feature is the ability to export shuffle transforms, in ordered-pair format, to my own Excel and BASIC routines where I can develop keycard and slug tracking methods and calculate their EV's and variances. It's very important to me to know these things in advance before I use a method in a casino or even practice it with cards.

All of these things are of value to me. I do not know if they would be of value to you. But I hear the next version of QFIT comes with something to make you a good holecarder. It's cigarettes, to stunt your growth! And the version after that is going to include a jar of Vaseline to help those who use certain other methods in the casino.

Okay, but you're also not an expert and not a professional player. For starters, you have a job, don't you? Didn't you say something about being an engineer? This makes you a weekend warrior at best. Your experience is limited, and you don't play for very high stakes, and you probably don't use much of an array of techniques or much in the way of creativity when it comes to getting the money through advantage play. You talk a good game, but how much have you really made from shuffle tracking in your life? A few thousand? Or maybe you've lost a few thousand? Your opinion about whether QFIT's software is useful for working professionals or aspiring professionals is largely irrelevant to the truth of whether it is, which it isn't.

 

[person1125]

OK I have just read this whole tread and am like WTF? I will give this to Craps Master : at least his posts are pleasant to read and not full of curse words and immature sayings. I don't think Craps is LVHCM. I can understand what he says about QFIT software - it would sorta be like a pro-baseball player going back to T-ball - if he is a pro with all this experience why would he use software designed more for the beginner?

Craps a couple of questions for you though: I know you have mentioned several times that so-and-so (several different posters) only play red chips. Are you saying if you only play red chips you aren't a professional? If this is true then at what level do you have to bet to be considered a pro by you? Greens, blacks, purples?

The people QFIT lists you say several of them are hacks; which ones are you saying are hacks and why? And then would you consider the others what?? Good, Great, worth reading?

Maybe there can be SOMETHING worth while from this thread.

 

[QFIT]

Why would you assume that Craps Master has ever been in a casino? The posts are nothing but insults and claims without any evidence, and statements that everybody is a hack. Anybody can make up a name and post such useless nonsense.

Also, CV products are designed for both beginners and pros. The statements that no pros use the software is a simple lie. Some do, some don't. In fact I have volume deals with teams including the two largest modern teams.

 

[person1125]

Why would you assume that Craps Master has ever been in a casino? The posts are nothing but insults and claims without any evidence, and statements that everybody is a hack. Anybody can make up a name and post such useless nonsense.

Also, CV products are designed for both beginners and pros. The statements that no pros use the software is a simple lie. Some do, some don't. In fact I have volume deals with teams including the two largest modern teams.

I am just assuming. Like I said if CM does have decent info I would like to here it. I'll wait and see if he answers with no insults and really answers the questions. And not with "you inferior intellect can't handle my superior thinking."

And you say your CV products are designed also for the pros - my assumption that it is more for beginners is my bad then.

 

[zengrifter]

Craps a couple of questions for you though: I know you have mentioned several times that so-and-so (several different posters) only play red chips. Are you saying if you only play red chips you aren't a professional? If this is true then at what level do you have to bet to be considered a pro by you? Greens, blacks, purples?

I think that Mr/Ms CRAPMaster is not implying a specific amount, though a succesful pro would play more than reds, one would think. Notwithstanding, I have witnessed some well known pros/holecarders/posters playing reds, and certainly several playing only small black, but I beleive they ARE pros, nonetheless.

As for me, Stalker likes to point out that he's "only" seen me play reds, and its true - the two times I recall encountering him I was playing reds. BUT, on the other hand, when he and Grosjean were in a legal jam, Stalker consulted me and I immediately gave them the solution which ultimately resulted in a multi-hundred thousand dollar award - simple advice which was not immediately forthcomming from their AP community.

First of all, my INTERVIEW makes it clear that I'm not a full-time pro, but that I have tried counting full time on a few occaisions when I had nothing better going on. And in the case of the illustrious Stalker sightings, during the period that I was approaching sentencing, my BR was quite limited or so it would seem. So I shouldn't play?

I can also provide several sources who are familiar with my larger green and black play, but that still doesn't make me a 'pro' in the current sense.

Frankly, I think most "successful [FONT=&quot]pros" are long-term LOSERS in terms of what they might otherwise do with their lives.

I for example would not have beat the FCC cellular lotteries for $600M if I had been a full-time pro. An advantage-gambling amount that these "pros" could not achieve over several lifetimes of casino hauntings.

I would likely not have gone to prison for racketeering either, but thats another story! zg

Ps - I will say that the current Stalker is NOT a nice person, though he used to be with me. His past postings (no pun intended) certainly increased my awareness of advantages beyond counting. My educated guess as to why he's so nasty is either drugs or EGO or both.
[/FONT]

 

[ChefJJ]

I think that he/she is not implying a specific amount, though a succesful pro would play more than reds, one would think. I have witnessed some well known pros/holecarders playing reds, and certainly several playing only small black, but I beleive they ARE pros.

As for me, Stalker likes to point out that he's "only" seen me play reds, and its true - the two times I recall encountering him I was playing reds.

First of all, my INTERVIEW makes it clear that I'm not a full-time pro, but that I have tried counting full time on a few occaisions when I had nothing better going on. And in the case of the [FONT=&quot]illustrious Stalker sightings my BR was quite limited. So I shouldn't play?

I can also provide several sources who are familiar with my larger green and black play, but that still doesn't make me a 'pro' in the current sense.

Frankly, I think most "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]successful [/FONT][FONT=&quot]pros" are long-term LOSERS in terms of what they might otherwise do with their lives. I for example would not have beat the FCC cellular lotteries for $600M if I had been a full-tim pro.

I would likely not have gone to prison for racketeering either, but thats another story! zg
[/FONT]

So, was your butt r*p*ng worth $600M?

 

[zengrifter]

So, was your butt r*p*ng worth $600M?

Ha! I was in min-security camp... I watched three seasons of OZ on HBO so I'd know how to take care of myself, and then wound up in Camp Snoopy... there wasn't that sort of thing there.

And my investors got most of the $600M. zg

 

[ChefJJ]

Ha! I was in min-security camp... I watched three seasons of OZ on HBO so I'd know how to take care of myself, and then wound up in Camp Snoopy... there wasn't that sort of thing there.

And my investors got most of the $600M. zg

Good! I couldn't imagine any price on that...your "virginity" is priceless! :devil:

Seriously though, nothing wrong with a little Club Fed, right? I don't think even Martha Stewart got off that well!

 

[Craps Master]

OK I have just read this whole tread and am like WTF? I will give this to Craps Master : at least his posts are pleasant to read and not full of curse words and immature sayings. I don't think Craps is LVHCM. I can understand what he says about QFIT software - it would sorta be like a pro-baseball player going back to T-ball - if he is a pro with all this experience why would he use software designed more for the beginner?

That's a decent analogy, but lacking in one regard. In the case of the professional baseball player, he surely has to take steps to make it from zero knowledge and skill to professional-level knowledge and skill. Hypothetically, playing T-ball as a youth could be part of this progression, and maybe it should be. I'm not an expert on the matter, so I have no way to know. At the very least, you will expect that he grew up playing little league and then high school ball and so on. Such is the case for the blackjack professional. He generally isn't going to go from zero knowledge and skill to professional level knowledge and skill without making incremental progress. In the case of the blackjack player, however, using QFIT's software never need be a part of the progression toward a high skill level. People are definitely better without wasting their time or money using it or buying it.

So, yes, you are right, but your analogy also requires that adjustment to make it complete.

Craps a couple of questions for you though: I know you have mentioned several times that so-and-so (several different posters) only play red chips. Are you saying if you only play red chips you aren't a professional? If this is true then at what level do you have to bet to be considered a pro by you? Greens, blacks, purples?

There are, in fact, some professionals who play very low stakes. They have their personal reasons, I'm sure. But, these people are far and away the exception and not the rule. Generally, if you have the skill and know-how to get an edge, you should exploit it to the maximum, and anyone who understands the meaning of the term "advantage player" does just that. So, it stands to reason that people who find edges and who have bankrolls will exploit said edges beyond the limit of red chips. I don't have a problem with newbies and aspiring professionals who are on short bankrolls and still very much in the learning process playing red chips. Good for them; they're trying, and I've certainly been there myself, years ago. But, when you've been in the industry for years or decades and you're still playing with red chips, you're either (a) not a legitimate professional, and just an armchair player or (b) crazy.

The people QFIT lists you say several of them are hacks; which ones are you saying are hacks and why? And then would you consider the others what?? Good, Great, worth reading?

I think Blackbelt in Blackjack is one of the best books ever written on the game of blackjack. But, this is completely beside the point. My point was that QFIT has supplied us with a list of authors, has beens, hacks, and salesmen who say that his software is good. So what? Take the case of Don Schlesinger. The man has a Wall Street job and published a book on blackjack. He's not a professional. MIT Mike is running a seminar. He may have played years ago, but he's a salesman now. Bryce Carlson, Kevin Blackwood, Rick Blaine, Ralph Stricker, Ian Andersen, George C, Semyon Dukach... all authors. Anthony Curtis is an erstwhile counter, a tournament player and a publisher. Just another salesman, really. Ken Smith is a tournament player, and proprietor of the BlackjackInfo Store. I wonder how much he makes from each sale of CV made by his store? Some of these people are hacks and some are not. I will leave it up to each of you to decide for yourself who is and isn't legitimate.

Now take the case of Craps Master. That's me. I am a working professional. I play for high stakes and with big edges. I have nothing to gain or lose by offering an honest, professional opinion about QFIT's software; I am doing this out of sheer magnanimity, because I am a good person. And my opinion is that it is not worth the time or money for the professional or aspiring professional.