Real Pros?

[Craps Master]

First of all, my INTERVIEW makes it clear that I'm not a full-time pro, but that I have tried counting full time on a few occaisions when I had nothing better going on. And in the case of the illustrious Stalker sightings my BR was quite limited. So I shouldn't play?

Play all you want. I'm just making sure everyone knows you're not much of an authority on blackjack. They can listen to you if they want, but it's a bad idea, because your limited amount of knowledge and understanding of the game will probably only hurt the aspiring professional's chances. Given your criminal past and proclivity for being an untrustworthy character, they should probably just avoid you altogether and certainly not look up to you as wise, especially competent, or knowledgeable. It's my opinion that, in the world of advantage play, you are none of the above. You're just another in a long line of low-stakes internet rabble-rousers, made worse by the incessant plugging of your incredibly weak "Grifter's Gambit" hooey.

Furthermore, your ineptitude at using vBulletin's font tags isn't helping anything.

 

[mdlbj]

Joev,
The pros do not have anymore info then what is available to you and I. However, it is how they use that information in a real world arena which sets them apart from recreational players. As far as casinos hearing about what advantage players are trying to do to them is another story The casinos have all the info that is needed to look for cheaters, or counters. But, they are usually not on the ball regarding the later.

 

[QFIT]

I think Blackbelt in Blackjack is one of the best books ever written on the game of blackjack. But, this is completely beside the point. My point was that QFIT has supplied us with a list of authors, has beens, hacks, and salesmen who say that his software is good. So what? Take the case of Don Schlesinger. The man has a Wall Street job and published a book on blackjack. He's not a professional. MIT Mike is running a seminar. He may have played years ago, but he's a salesman now. Bryce Carlson, Kevin Blackwood, Rick Blaine, Ralph Stricker, Ian Andersen, George C, Semyon Dukach... all authors. Anthony Curtis is an erstwhile counter, a tournament player and a publisher. Just another salesman, really. Ken Smith is a tournament player, and proprietor of the BlackjackInfo Store. I wonder how much he makes from each sale of CV made by his store? Some of these people are hacks and some are not. I will leave it up to each of you to decide for yourself who is and isn't legitimate.

You haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. Seriously, your knowledge of several of these people is completely off.

 

[Craps Master]

You haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. Seriously, your knowledge of several of these people is completely off.

Everything I posted was correct. Did anyone I listed as an author not write a book or manual? Is Anthony Curtis not a publisher? Is this website's affiliated store not run by Ken Smith? Is MIT Mike not running a seminar? Is Blackbelt in Blackjack not one of the best books written on the game of blackjack? Please list one specific instance where I was wrong, and if the facts don't back me up, I'll gladly retract my previous statements. Whatever the case, I don't see how it's relevant at all to how I think your software is a waste of time. You can keep lining up so-called authorities and I will keep thinking CV is a waste of time and money, and every single working professional advantage player in existence will continue agreeing with me and not you or your legion of salesmen and armchair authorities.

And, again, this thread is about Real Pros, as per the thread's title. You've already admitted you're not an expert, and your software definitely has nothing to do with being a Real Pro. Why not just hop on out of this thread since you're not really qualified to answer questions here. Unless, of course, you have a question or want some advice. In that case, fire away. Maybe I can give you some pointers to help you elevate your game and get you over that red chip hurdle that I've heard about.

 

[ChefJJ]

I don't know any of those people, but I will play the devil's advocate here.

For those people who make their living doing seminars, selling product, teaching, etc.; does anyone think that they are doing so because their casino skill does not bring in as much revenue?

And if so, how does one look at that? Does it mean that "selling" the concept is big business? Or does it mean that they don't have the applied skill to pull down the big bucks?

I draw the parallel to the dice influence salesmen out there...if that technique is a true gold mine, why spread it to the world? Granted though, I think that the dice influencing is bunk and it would be generous to say that it grants any advantage over just chucking the dice down the table. Nonetheless, though, the concept of dice influencing is no way nearly as practical and "performable" in the casino as card counting and other techniques (which I cannot profess to be knowledgeable in).

good luck

 

[QFIT]

I don't know any of those people, but I will play the devil's advocate here.

For those people who make their living doing seminars, selling product, teaching, etc.; does anyone think that they are doing so because their casino skill does not bring in as much revenue?

And if so, how does one look at that? Does it mean that "selling" the concept is big business? Or does it mean that they don't have the applied skill to pull down the big bucks?

I draw the parallel to the dice influence salesmen out there...if that technique is a true gold mine, why spread it to the world? Granted though, I think that the dice influencing is bunk and it would be generous to say that it grants any advantage over just chucking the dice down the table. Nonetheless, though, the concept of dice influencing is no way nearly as practical and "performable" in the casino as card counting and other techniques (which I cannot profess to be knowledgeable in).

good luck

These people do not make their livings giving seminars or selling books. This is bullshit. Craps Master simply has no idea what is currently going on. Frankly, I doubt if Craps Master knows anything useful about Blackjack pros. It's just insults and inventions. Beware of trolls.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Okay, but you're also not an expert and not a professional player. For starters, you have a job, don't you? Didn't you say something about being an engineer?

"Expert," "genius'", and "hero" are three words you never want to use about yourself. Let other people say those words about you. I have a couple of pieces of paper on my office wall that say I'm an expert on using computers and their output to solve engineering problems.

Is blackjack an engineering problem? Sometimes, and it can be aproached as one sometimes. I have no idea what your analytical credentials are and if you have the ability to apply Monte Carlo outputs to blackjack approaches. That's not meant as a put-down (and you should have figured out by now I'm not into putting people down) just an acknowledgement that different people have different skills. If that's the case, then it's understandable that the QFIT package is of no use to you. Some of your fellow players have ways to use it, and use it intensively.

This makes you a weekend warrior at best. Your experience is limited, and you don't play for very high stakes,

Yes, I'm a weekend warrior. But I take my weekend wars very seriously, because my money means as much to me as yours does to you. I'm a very blessed person, and I wouldn't enjoy using my blessings to play a zero-sum game full-time. Designing and producing things of value gives me more satistfaction.

Hey I broke into my bankroll this week to buy a new boat. I think I'll name the boat "Red Chip", because that's what I'll be playing for for the next couple of months. Life is tough for a monkey, I know.

and you probably don't use much of an array of techniques or much in the way of creativity when it comes to getting the money through advantage play.

I use an array of techniques, some of them creative. This is one of the things you learn very early in your engineering career- making new tools and developing new methods might be satisfying, but you don't make a new tool when there is one already in your box that will do the job. For example when a dealer is showing his hole card, you don't need a very creative technique to sit down and get the money. It's actually a pretty boring technique. If I see a good old fashioned single-deck game with deep pen, I know exactly what to do with it, and the creativity will be reserved for my cover.

You talk a good game, but how much have you really made from shuffle tracking in your life? A few thousand? Or maybe you've lost a few thousand? Your opinion about whether QFIT's software is useful for working professionals or aspiring professionals is largely irrelevant to the truth of whether it is, which it isn't.

I've made money using a few techniques ranging from the straightforward to the sleazy. Ever pick your nose and use it to mark a card? All right, then.

Look software is just a tool. I can give you a screwdriver, and you don't have to be an engineer or an expert on tool steels to determine whether it can remove a screw or not. Nor does it make any sense to say it's not a good screwdriver, because it's not a wrench. The software does the job I need it to do.

 

[ChefJJ]

These people do not make their livings giving seminars or selling books. This is bullshit. Craps Master simply has no idea what is currently going on. Frankly, I doubt if Craps Master knows anything useful about Blackjack pros. It's just insults and inventions. Beware of trolls.

Fair enough...but my question didn't deal with anyone in particular. It's not worth getting worked up about--it is, after all, an internet chat board.

 

[Craps Master]

I don't know any of those people, but I will play the devil's advocate here.

For those people who make their living doing seminars, selling product, teaching, etc.; does anyone think that they are doing so because their casino skill does not bring in as much revenue?

No, of course not. It does not logically follow that because a person writes a book or sells a seminar that he is not a skilled player or because his casino skill does not bring in as much revenue. But, it also does not logically follow that because a person has what it takes to write a book or give a seminar that he has what it takes to make a good earn at the casino. QFIT has elected to use these people as examples, but so what? So they wrote a book or gave a seminar? Who cares. I know that I make a living off of advantage play, and I know many other people who do. I know that I play at a stakes in the casino higher than anyone on that list with a consistently higher edge than anyone on that list, and that I think QFIT's software is a waste of time and money. And every other professional I know either thinks the same thing or hasn't even heard of QFIT or his software.

And if so, how does one look at that? Does it mean that "selling" the concept is big business? Or does it mean that they don't have the applied skill to pull down the big bucks?

Most of these people don't make much money from their books or from their seminars. A few do. You can draw no real conclusions about their motivations. Maybe they don't have the skill to get the money and so they sell their knowledge, or maybe they have other reasons. Maybe MIT Mike just likes giving seminars more than he likes playing blackjack. Playing blackjack can be kind of boring, so that is perfectly understandable. The truth is, however, that none of this matters, and I am not one to let appeals to social proof or groupthink influence my opinion. QFIT's software simply isn't useful for the working professional, and it isn't a necessary expenditure at all for someone aspiring to be a professional.

I draw the parallel to the dice influence salesmen out there...if that technique is a true gold mine, why spread it to the world? Granted though, I think that the dice influencing is bunk and it would be generous to say that it grants any advantage over just chucking the dice down the table. Nonetheless, though, the concept of dice influencing is no way nearly as practical and "performable" in the casino as card counting and other techniques (which I cannot profess to be knowledgeable in).

There have only been two books published with anything useful to say about dice. Most people haven't even heard of one, and the other is a general gambling book with a section in dice. All of the others are total BS. In the case of all these dice book, yes, the people are hucksters. Does it follow, then, that Rick Blaine is also a huckster or that MIT Mike is a huckster? No, but that doesn't mean they are worth listening to when it comes to an opinion about QFIT's software.

 

[Craps Master]

These people do not make their livings giving seminars or selling books. This is bullshit. Craps Master simply has no idea what is currently going on. Frankly, I doubt if Craps Master knows anything useful about Blackjack pros. It's just insults and inventions. Beware of trolls.

You still haven't offered up any specific objection to my list of authors, publishers, non-professionals and so on. Quote a specific objection and I will address it. I suspect you can't. I also suspect that you're still in this thread and you're still not a Real Pro, and so you really have no business trying to participate in this thread.

 

[ChefJJ]

Ever pick your nose and use it to mark a card?

Hope I never play at a table with or after you! :laugh:

You could always crank one off in the bathroom, mark the cards with some of that, and use special glasses to read the marks. Wow.

 

[ChefJJ]

No, of course not. It does not logically follow that because a person writes a book or sells a seminar that he is not a skilled player or because his casino skill does not bring in as much revenue. But, it also does not logically follow that because a person has what it takes to write a book or give a seminar that he has what it takes to make a good earn at the casino. QFIT has elected to use these people as examples, but so what? So they wrote a book or gave a seminar? Who cares. I know that I make a living off of advantage play, and I know many other people who do. I know that I play at a stakes in the casino higher than anyone on that list with a consistently higher edge than anyone on that list, and that I think QFIT's software is a waste of time and money. And every other professional I know either thinks the same thing or hasn't even heard of QFIT or his software.


Most of these people don't make much money from their books or from their seminars. A few do. You can draw no real conclusions about their motivations. Maybe they don't have the skill to get the money and so they sell their knowledge, or maybe they have other reasons. Maybe MIT Mike just likes giving seminars more than he likes playing blackjack. Playing blackjack can be kind of boring, so that is perfectly understandable. The truth is, however, that none of this matters, and I am not one to let appeals to social proof or groupthink influence my opinion. QFIT's software simply isn't useful for the working professional, and it isn't a necessary expenditure at all for someone aspiring to be a professional.



There have only been two books published with anything useful to say about dice. Most people haven't even heard of one, and the other is a general gambling book with a section in dice. All of the others are total BS. In the case of all these dice book, yes, the people are hucksters. Does it follow, then, that Rick Blaine is also a huckster or that MIT Mike is a huckster? No, but that doesn't mean they are worth listening to when it comes to an opinion about QFIT's software.

I don't know why people are calling for Craps Master's head. He has an opinion, and makes good points. Not that I, or anybody has to agree with it...

good luck

 

[Craps Master]

Yes, I'm a weekend warrior.

'Nuff said.

 

[Craps Master]

Joev,
The pros do not have anymore info then what is available to you and I. However, it is how they use that information in a real world arena which sets them apart from recreational players. As far as casinos hearing about what advantage players are trying to do to them is another story The casinos have all the info that is needed to look for cheaters, or counters. But, they are usually not on the ball regarding the later.

Yes, we do. It's not like 100% of advantage play techniques are published. Further, there is a wide gap between theory and practice. Part of our know-how is knowing exactly what it takes to use a piece of theory and turn it into money. That is knowledge in and of itself, and not simply the use of knowledge.

Everything in this business is easier said than done, and a Real Pro knows who can only talk the talk and who can walk the walk. I'm trying to grant the fruits of my professionally-derived powers of discernment to all of you via my advice and criticism in this thread.

 

[QFIT]

I don't know why people are calling for Craps Master's head. He has an opinion, and makes good points. Not that I, or anybody has to agree with it...

good luck

What points? Repeating gossip, making wild claims with no evidence, belittling everybody, spreading lies does not make good points. These are the actions of a troll. Anonymously disrupt a forum with insults and zero accurate or useful information. Claim with no evidence you are the only expert and everyone else is a fraud including the most famous and respected names in the field. Imply dishonest motivations on respected authorities. Never actually provide any actual reasoning or logic. I've seen this hundreds of times. It is clear from the posts that CrapsMaster does not know any of the people in the BJ field. No way this is a "pro." The only advice offered is that everyone is a hack accept for CrapsMaster. Ignore everyone but CrapsMaster. This is what a scam artist does. Oddly some people actually fall for this despite the fact there is no evidence CrapsMaster has ever been in a casino.

 

[Craps Master]

What points? Repeating gossip, making wild claims with no evidence, belittling everybody, spreading lies does not make good points. These are the actions of a troll. Disrupt a forum with insults and zero accurate or useful information. It is clear from the posts that CrapsMaster does not know any of these people. No way this is a "pro."

Actually, repeating gossip ("Craps Master is Radar!?"), making wild claims with no evidence ("No way this is a "pro."") and belitting everybody ("These are the actions of a troll.") are what you are doing. I'm just going around letting everybody know that (a) you're not a professional player or expert (which you've acknowledged) and (b) that, in my opinion, your software is a waste of time and money for professionals or aspiring professionals. You have not yet shown why either of these points is invalid and, in fact, you've confirmed the first! To answer the second, you've simply posted the same list of salesmen over and over to serve as some sort of appeal to popular authority. The critical thinkers among us are still not impressed. And now you've gotten to the point of insulting the intelligence of the readers of this site by trying to engage junior varsity level rhetoric through continual skirting of the issues, the continued posting in a thread about Real Pros when you are not one, and the introduction of more and more ad hominem attacks and outlandish claims. When will you knock it off already?

One thing about a true advantage player is that he knows when he's playing without an edge. You are in this thread without an edge, and just making yourself look bad by trying to fight dirty in the face of crushing and insurmountable logic, and you really should make an exit. All I'm doing is offering up the same facts (with which you agree, as you've admitted to not being an expert) and the same opinion (which is just as valid now as it was the first time I posted it) and you keep coming at it from a different angle each time, trying to play semantical games or invent new ways to discredit me via personal attacks. But, as I stated long ago, your lack of intellectual rigor in how you conduct yourself here is your undoing, because we can all see through your asinine ploys.

 

[shadroch]

I just went and read the entire ten pages of this thread,and must say that Craps Master comes off quite well,imho. He was answering the original question and was on point until he was attacked.
I realize many people think CM is also LVHCM,but even if it is true,he's a much kinder,gentler poster. Which is what everyone wanted.
I just wish I could find this 6-5 advantage post Sonny mentioned. Can someone pm me with it,please.

 

[zengrifter]

Play all you want. I'm just making sure everyone knows you're not much of an authority on blackjack. They can listen to you if they want, but it's a bad idea, because your limited amount of knowledge and understanding of the game will probably only hurt the aspiring professional's chances. Given your criminal past and proclivity for being an untrustworthy character, they should probably just avoid you altogether and certainly not look up to you as wise, especially competent, or knowledgeable. It's my opinion that, in the world of advantage play, you are none of the above. You're just another in a long line of low-stakes internet rabble-rousers, made worse by the incessant plugging of your incredibly weak "Grifter's Gambit" hooey.

Furthermore, your ineptitude at using vBulletin's font tags isn't helping anything.

Anyone here knows that I do not "plug" the consolidation-gambit betting. Notwithstanding, when Grosjean chose to "plug" it in Beyond Counting he could have given due credit.

Your ad hominen denouncement of my "untrustworthiness" gives me a chuckle since you choose not to share your identy or finer details of your credentials, whereas I, the untrustworthy one, have shared most everything about myself.

So, here and now, tell us who or what you are, without actual identity of course. What do you do and how long have you been doing it, and especially, how much have you made doing it? We are all ears!

And, while you are at it, tell us again why you are here... is it out of compassion for our ignorance? zg

 

[shadroch]

He is here for the same reason any of us are,because we choose to be.
Before QFIT attacked him three or four posts into this thread,he was making some very valid points.Maybe you know all there needs to be known,but I and most of us don't.Maybe if everyone would get over their dislikes and petty disagreements ,we just might learn something.
CM doesn't like QFITs software. Fine. QFIT disagrees and lists a bunch of guys who think its the best thing since sliced beer. Double Fine. None of which is particulary enlightening to anyone not named QFIT or Craps master.
If anyone has a problem with any particular member,ignore him. If someone is full of **** or has nothing meaningful to add to the boards,that will be found out soon enough. But it's real weak to claim to know someones id,claim they work for a casino but not produce a shred of evidence to support themselves.

 

[zengrifter]

He is here for the same reason any of us are,because we choose to be.
Before QFIT attacked him three or four posts into this thread,he was making some very valid points.Maybe you know all there needs to be known,but I and most of us don't.Maybe if everyone would get over their dislikes and petty disagreements ,we just might learn something.
CM doesn't like QFITs software. Fine. QFIT disagrees and lists a bunch of guys who think its the best thing since sliced beer. Double Fine. None of which is particulary enlightening to anyone not named QFIT or Craps master.
If anyone has a problem with any particular member,ignore him. If someone is full of **** or has nothing meaningful to add to the boards,that will be found out soon enough. But it's real weak to claim to know someones id,claim they work for a casino but not produce a shred of evidence to support themselves.

Fair enough, but I'd like some real meat to these otherwise etherealian posts. Sharing one's superiority without evidence of substance is just the shallowest projection of ego.

Did we ever locate the 6/5 advantage ploy? zg