Real Pros?

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Craps Master

Well-Known Member
QFIT said:
[QFIT shows that he is the real Shufflemaster]
So, which is it, QFIT? Are you an expert or are you not an expert? You said you don't claim to be, which I take to mean that you're not an expert. But here is your chance to be absolutely clear on the matter. After that, you can then answer the follow-up question of whether you make a living playing blackjack or whether you don't make a living playing blackjack. That would indicate to us whether you're a professional or not. It is my understanding that you are not, in fact, a professional blackjack player. Now is your chance to completely clear the air and leave us in a position of unequivocal understanding about your expertise and your status as either a professional or amateur player.
 
Craps Master said:
...
If you're not playing good shoes with at least a 1 to 2 x 20 spread (and preferably bigger), you're wasting your time...
Are you suggesting using this spread for play-all, Wong-out, or backcounting?
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
Longish response

Craps Master said:
So, which is it, QFIT? Are you an expert or are you not an expert? You said you don't claim to be, which I take to mean that you're not an expert. But here is your chance to be absolutely clear on the matter. After that, you can then answer the follow-up question of whether you make a living playing blackjack or whether you don't make a living playing blackjack. That would indicate to us whether you're a professional or not. It is my understanding that you are not, in fact, a professional blackjack player. Now is your chance to completely clear the air and leave us in a position of unequivocal understanding about your expertise and your status as either a professional or amateur player.

First, it is inappropriate to ask an AP any questions about their play on a public forum. The only reason to ask such questions is to cause them harm. I find it amazing that you would ask such questions or make claims about others in public.

Second it is irrelevant. Einstein has never visited a black hole. That did not mean we should not listen to him. Would you ignore Griffin or Thorp because they only played for fun?

But, I will answer your question nonetheless. I did play BJ for a living. It was a valuable experience. I do not now. I have been counting for 30 years. If I were still making a living in this manner; I would consider myself a dismal failure. One of the most valuable things I learned from Revere 30 years back is that I didn’t want to end up like him. Professional BJ is a lonely, monotonous, tedious, paranoia inducing job that requires constant travel and visits to smoky, noisy locales with constant contact with nasty people out to harm you. Why would anyone choose to take part in this professionally for 30 years when so much money can be made in pleasant endeavors? And at the end of a BJ career; what have you built? What can you look back on as your accomplishment? When you go to your kid’s career day; do you tell his classmates that you peek at other people’s cards for a living? You might as well say you look for coins in phone booths.

This is why so many ‘pros’ write books. They have a desire to create something. There is no money in writing niche books and you shouldn’t impugn their motives for sharing. They write because they want to give back and they want to see something they have built. I took a different path. I became a vice-president of the country’s largest financial institution. The pay was more than excellent, the variance only positive and I flew on the company dime around the globe premium class several times staying at the best hotels. Later I and my partners started an IT company which was acquired by one of the largest consulting firms. I got to build things of value while profiting handsomely. I’d have been an idiot to continue playing BJ for a living. Now I get to play BJ for enjoyment. Instead of a tedious job; it is a fascinating enjoyable challenge to use new techniques in battle with the casinos. Bankroll is no problem; I get to visit casinos in luxury. I have time to research BJ and I supply tools to novices and pros. My work in BJ has allowed me to meet an enormous number of players at all levels invaluable in continuing my research. I get to hear about new opportunities and techniques early as I perform specific research for pros at request (and at no charge.) The combination of building research tools and constant contact with top players has increased my knowledge of BJ far more than I would expect by constantly sitting with my nose to the grindstone. When I play I do so because I want to – not because I have to. I know some long-time pros that dread starting a new trip; but need the retirement money.

There was a post a couple of months ago on another site by a player that was tossed out by a casino guard. Stalker responded that he sees this as an AP opportunity and will get in his face to provoke him to violence so he can sue. This reminded me of a scene from Midnight Cowboy. Ratso, the long-time cheap con, is walking with a wannabe con. He walks through a red light and is nearly hit by a cab. After an exchange of curses; he advises the newby that this is a great way to make money. Get hit by a cab and sue. Then we realize this is the reason he has been limping throughout the movie.:) When you get to the point that you believe provoking violence against yourself is an AP opportunity; you should start reviewing your career decisions.

Don’t get me wrong. I know many long-timers that enjoy the profession and are kind, giving, pleasant people. But many full time players are just ground down by the tedium and paranoia and become nasty people that strike out at anyone that has not chosen their path. Hard to blame them when you have traveled that road. It is not a path that I wish on anyone and I constantly advise people not to make AP the primary source of income.

Now after having pried this out of me – I fully expect you to take sentences out of context and continue your attacks.
 

Craps Master

Well-Known Member
Automatic Monkey said:
Are you suggesting using this spread for play-all, Wong-out, or backcounting?
Whichever strategy will get you the most EV in any particular situation. Consider, for example, that you're at a major casino with plenty of shoes, but you've found a dealer who deals at lightning speed and you've got the table heads up or with only another player or two there. What's the answer? I would probably stay and play all and employ as enormous a spread as I can. You see, these types of things are just glossed over in the books, with their tables of expected hands per hour for a given number of players at the table. Generally speaking, trying to find a dealer who deals significantly faster than other dealers is superior to Wonging out or backcounting.

The answer to your question also depends on your entry and departure points. I don't really advocate moving around the pit or casino with aggressive Wonging-out or backcounting, but trying to find the pit or dealer with the best conditions. If you absolutely must bounce around, you can certainly reduce the spread by requiring a positive edge before jumping in and leaving at your best estimate for the ODP. But, again, all of that stuff is for minor-leaguers. Far better is scouting for the best conditions, remembering the names, shifts, and so on of dealers who deal and shuffle extremely fast and being surgical in how you target shoes. You can literally double your long-term EV this way.

In determining if a pit is better than another pit in a major house, you first look to see which pit has the table with the biggest action. You then position yourself at a table at which it is inconvenient for a boss to pay close attention to you in the same pit, because he'll have to track and observe the big player's play closely. Keep your max bet below the big player's bets, and you won't get noticed very much. Secondly, you look for pits where the bosses definitely don't remember you or, if they do remember you, it is because you got destroyed the last time you were playing there, and they think of you as a loser.

These things will take you much further than worrying about when to Wong in or out of a game or what spread you should employ when using different approaches. If you find a shoe with great conditions but where the count gets intolerably low, you can always Wong out to the bathroom for a couple of minutes and then come right back for the next shoe.
 

Craps Master

Well-Known Member
QFIT said:
[Long-winded, heartfelt glimpse into QFIT, the man and his life, complete with a thinly-veiled attempt to liken himself to Einstein. Good grief.]
:violin:

You answered one question: you're not a professional blackjack player. As such, you're not a Real Pro. What about the other question? Do you consider yourself an expert at the game of blackjack?
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
First you accuse me of claiming all over the ‘Net that I am an expert. When I point out that I have never posted such; you then repeatedly claim I admit to not being an expert. Now you demand that I claim I am or admit I’m not. If I say no; you will again repeatedly say I admit I’m no expert and that you were right all along. If I say Yes; you will again state that I noisily claim to be an expert and that you were right all along.:) I will not play your childish game.

It matters not what you say about yourself. It matters what those that you respect say about you.
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
QFIT said:
First you accuse me of claiming all over the ‘Net that I am an expert. When I point out that I have never posted such; you then repeatedly claim I admit to not being an expert. Now you demand that I claim I am or admit I’m not. If I say no; you will again repeatedly say I admit I’m no expert and that you were right all along. If I say Yes; you will again state that I noisily claim to be an expert and that you were right all along.:) I will not play your childish game.

It matters not what you say about yourself. It matters what those that you respect say about you.
You need to take a step back. CM is getting your goat, but you don't even know who he is or what his motive is. You've even "cautioned" some of us against him...but I'm not sure how CM could hurt me.
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
ChefJJ said:
You need to take a step back. CM is getting your goat, but you don't even know who he is or what his motive is. You've even "cautioned" some of us against him...but I'm not sure how CM could hurt me.
Well, he could tell you to spread 1-30 at double deck without any explanation:)
 

ChefJJ

Well-Known Member
QFIT said:
Well, he could tell you to spread 1-30 at double deck without any explanation:)
If I'm going to believe that...

There are a lot of points/beliefs/concepts thrown around here without explanation. It's the reader's duty to discern whether those things should be followed either by his own logic or logic provided with it.

All I'm saying is that you are really emotionally wrapped in this. Who knows, maybe that's what CM wants.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
zengrifter said:
SageF, don't give up, we'll get to the bottom of this yet! zg
rignt we shall get to the bottom of it. however i have no intention of using up my time and effort in a further search as it's obvious that the reward would not be worth the effort.
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
ChefJJ said:
If I'm going to believe that...

There are a lot of points/beliefs/concepts thrown around here without explanation. It's the reader's duty to discern whether those things should be followed either by his own logic or logic provided with it.

All I'm saying is that you are really emotionally wrapped in this. Who knows, maybe that's what CM wants.
If you're saying my longish response was 'emotional' it certainly wasn't meant that way. It is an on point discussion of the subject that started this thread. If someone wants to be a "pro," there are some points I think that should be considered. Frankly I think such labels are silly. One should define their own goals and act accordingly. I am just supplying a bit of my own experience. Take it for what it's worth. That is what such forums are all about.

As for CM's statements that all respected authorities in the field are money-hungry hacks and he is the only real source of information, these are common statements by trolls on all types of forums and they should be called on it. Stalker and friends have been trolling sites for years with this line. Just MHO.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
well i guess CM's opinion about large bet spreads and looking for advantages in various sundry conditions is fairly refreshing.
nothing really new but at least could be discussed.
 
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shadroch

Well-Known Member
QFIT said:
First, it is inappropriate to ask an AP any questions about their play on a public forum. The only reason to ask such questions is to cause them harm. I find it amazing that you would ask such questions or make claims about others in public.

Second it is irrelevant. Einstein has never visited a black hole. That did not mean we should not listen to him. Would you ignore Griffin or Thorp because they only played for fun?

But, I will answer your question nonetheless. I did play BJ for a living. It was a valuable experience. I do not now. I have been counting for 30 years. If I were still making a living in this manner; I would consider myself a dismal failure. One of the most valuable things I learned from Revere 30 years back is that I didn’t want to end up like him. Professional BJ is a lonely, monotonous, tedious, paranoia inducing job that requires constant travel and visits to smoky, noisy locales with constant contact with nasty people out to harm you. Why would anyone choose to take part in this professionally for 30 years when so much money can be made in pleasant endeavors? And at the end of a BJ career; what have you built? What can you look back on as your accomplishment? When you go to your kid’s career day; do you tell his classmates that you peek at other people’s cards for a living? You might as well say you look for coins in phone booths.


Very nice. Looking for coins in phone booths. You choose to denigrate the exact thing most of the boards members are striving to be.
Maybe you should take a step back and revisit your posts in this thread. You are coming across in a manner thats well out of character.Not to mention,quite dated.
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
shadroch said:
Very nice. Looking for coins in phone booths. You choose to denigrate the exact thing most of the boards members are striving to be.
Maybe you should take a step back and revisit your posts in this thread. You are coming across in a manner thats well out of character.Not to mention,quite dated.
Well, I predicted that my statements would be taken out of context. I was not denigrating holecarding. I was pointing out what it looks like to your kid's friends on career day. Choose whatever profession you wish. All I am saying is that you might want to consider what you'll have to look back on as your life's work at a later date. And I really don't think most people here are striving to be holecarders.

I believe that BJ is a great avocation. And yes it can be highly profitable. But it is my experience that it makes a lousy vocation. That's just my opinion and I think it is of value to point out the pitfalls to those that want to play professionally. That is the subject of the thread. Hey, it would be to my benefit to claim it's a wonderful job. But I always point out the bad with the good when I receive phone calls from prospective pros. I believe an honest response is more valuable than glossing over the bad parts and viewing a James Bond life through rose colored glasses. If you want that; ignore me and ignore Arnold Snyder's many articles with titles like "You won't win."

This is not "well out of character." It is honesty.
 
QFIT said:
As for CM's statements that all respected authorities in the field are money-hungry hacks and he is the only real source of information, these are common statements by trolls on all types of forums and they should be called on it. Stalker and friends have been trolling sites for years with this line. Just MHO.
You continue to dwell in a fantasy land. No one said all respected authorities in the field are hacks. The statement was most are - a true statement which most certainly includes you.

You have made several libelous statements about me - none of which are true - and when asked for an ounce of evidence, you choose to ignore the question.

Show one ounce of evidence that I have ever ratted out a cardcounter as you've suggested, "stalked" any web site administrators as you charge, or that I am backed by a cardcounter catcher. Methinks it's you who is the "troll".

You have posted several times that CM is Radar - which in true QFIT fashion, is false. I offered you a 100k challenge on that, which I guess you've declined. It's really no surprise you can't back anything up, for you are a compulsive liar.

You are not a professional player, your software has virtually no use for a professional player. Two statements that have yet to be refuted. Consulting for the "***** Team" managed by two more hacks , ********* and ********, and starring ********** as a key player does not bolster your "respect" in the community, it makes you a laughing stock.

Your desperation and grasping at straws is frankly one of the most comical things I've witnessed in some time.
 
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QFIT

Well-Known Member
Funny, in the very same post Stalker accuses me of lying when I say he outs people - he attempts to out even more people. But as it happens, I have never heard of an ****** team.
 
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QFIT said:
Funny, in the very same post Stalker accuses me of lying when I say he outs people - he attempts to out even more people. But as it happens, I have never heard of an ****** team.
Funnier still, in a post responding to charges that he is a liar, Norm still will not produce any evidence...and then lies some more. Classic.
 
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shadroch

Well-Known Member
QFIT said:
Well, I predicted that my statements would be taken out of context. I was not denigrating holecarding. I was pointing out what it looks like to your kid's friends on career day. Choose whatever profession you wish. All I am saying is that you might want to consider what you'll have to look back on as your life's work at a later date. And I really don't think most people here are striving to be holecarders.

I believe that BJ is a great avocation. And yes it can be highly profitable. But it is my experience that it makes a lousy vocation. That's just my opinion and I think it is of value to point out the pitfalls to those that want to play professionally. That is the subject of the thread. Hey, it would be to my benefit to claim it's a wonderful job. But I always point out the bad with the good when I receive phone calls from prospective pros. I believe an honest response is more valuable than glossing over the bad parts and viewing a James Bond life through rose colored glasses. If you want that; ignore me and ignore Arnold Snyder's many articles with titles like "You won't win."

This is not "well out of character." It is honesty.
First off,you were talking about playing black jack as a living,not hole-carding. You say you counted for thirty years,and if you still did it today,you'd consider yourself a dismal failure. How is that out of context?
 

QFIT

Well-Known Member
shadroch said:
First off,you were talking about playing black jack as a living,not hole-carding. You say you counted for thirty years,and if you still did it today,you'd consider yourself a dismal failure. How is that out of context?
I did not say if I still counted I would consider myself a failure. I do still count today. No, I am saying that if I spent the last 30 years "making a living in this manner," I would consider myself a failure. That's a personal reaction. It's a crappy life if you don't also do something else. Even Stalker has a real job. If you feel differently; then that's fine for you. There are some people that go on and on about how they are BJ pros when in fact they play video poker for hours a day. What kind of life is it playing video poker for 30 years? I'm sorry if this offends you; but I think someone needs to talk about the downside. There are plenty of cheerleaders just talking about the positives.
 

zengrifter

Banned
shadroch said:
First off,you were talking about playing black jack as a living,not hole-carding. You say you counted for thirty years,and if you still did it today,you'd consider yourself a dismal failure. How is that out of context?
QFIT said "FOR A LIVING" would be a failure. That its best as an avocation.

I think I said it too -
zengrifter said:
Frankly, I think most "successful [FONT=&quot]pros" are long-term LOSERS in terms of what they might otherwise have done with their lives. [/FONT]
 
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