Rhode Island-Video Blackjack Tables?

[Automatic Monkey]

The one article claims (incorrectly) they are VLT's but the other two mention nothing about blackjack machines.

If the Shufflemasters (yes, "Royal Match" is a Shufflemaster product) are VLT's then either somebody ripped open a Shufflemaster BJ machine and replaced the workings with VLT firmware, or somebody stole the stickers and graphics off a Shufflemaster and stuck them on a VLT. Either would be a felony.

Here is the ad for the product from Shufflemaster:
(Dead link: http://www.shufflemaster.com/02_eu_products/entertainment_products/electronic_table_games/table_master.asp)

 

[shadroch]

Dispite what that one web site says, I don't see any way a Shuffle Master Royal Match machine could be a VLT.
A VLT machine determines ahead of time if you will win or lose. I think we all agree on this point.
Now Fred and I are playing on the same machine,along with four other players. The machine decides I'm going to win, Fred is going to lose.
I'm dealt a 3 and a 1, Fred gets an 18. But I decide to stay, so the machine must now bust for me to win. But it can't bust because it's already determined that Fred is going to lose.
Splain that one, if you can.

 

[bj bob]

Dispite what that one web site says, I don't see any way a Shuffle Master Royal Match machine could be a VLT.
A VLT machine determines ahead of time if you will win or lose. I think we all agree on this point.
Now Fred and I are playing on the same machine,along with four other players. The machine decides I'm going to win, Fred is going to lose.
I'm dealt a 3 and a 1, Fred gets an 18. But I decide to stay, so the machine must now bust for me to win. But it can't bust because it's already determined that Fred is going to lose.
Splain that one, if you can.

Yeah, that one got me thinking too. One the other hand, how does the machine know that you and Fred aren't the same person playing two hands and they both lose? Another scenario..suppose you are dealt a hard 19 or 20 and elect to hit, not once but twice?

 

[I just like semi-circles]

I've been looking some more, and here's another link directly from the RI Lottery website. It talks about the VLT's in slots, video poker, keno, and video blackjack located in the RI casinos. It also lists the payback percentage for each place. I tried calling Twin Rivers for some clarification, but I'm just getting someone's voicemail. The link below from the RI Lottery website sure makes it sound like the blackjack (and everything else there) are indeed VLT's. See for yourself-

https://www.rilot.com/video.asp

 

[I just like semi-circles]

I think this link confirms it. The blackjack games in RI are VLT's. From the Providence Journal-

http://www.projo.com/news/content/virtual_blackjack_21_12-21-07_IF8BDHK_v14.298eb83.html (Archive copy)

 

[shadroch]

I've been looking some more, and here's another link directly from the RI Lottery website. It talks about the VLT's in slots, video poker, keno, and video blackjack located in the RI casinos. It also lists the payback percentage for each place. I tried calling Twin Rivers for some clarification, but I'm just getting someone's voicemail. The link below from the RI Lottery website sure makes it sound like the blackjack (and everything else there) are indeed VLT's. See for yourself-

https://www.rilot.com/video.asp

It does not list the payback percentage. Its lists the percent paid back in the last reporting cycle. There is a huge difference. A machine set to pay back 98% in the long run can still payback over 100% over any one period of time.
A machine may be set for one royal Flush every 40,000 hands yet give two in a row. The percent paid back that week or month will differ greatly from the set payback rate.

 

[johndoe]

I think this link confirms it. The blackjack games in RI are VLT's. From the Providence Journal-

Read the article carefully, they are only classified as VLT's because they contain a video screen and a microprocessor, not because they are acting like a slot machine.

"Indeed these machines are clearly Video Lottery Terminals (VLTs) in that they each utilize a microprocessor and video display to dispense free games or credits that can be redeemed for cash."

"...the common factor in all of these machines is the use of a microprocessor and a video display."

 

[I just like semi-circles]

From Twin Rivers site-

Twin River Has over 4,700 of the latest Video Lottery Terminals (VLTs) spread throughout two floors. Each floor has rooms to accommodate smoking and non-smoking patrons. Twin River has a wide selection of video slot games to include reel games with various line options, video poker, video keno, blackjack, and wide area Ca$hola progressive jackpot machines. Twin River offers all traditional Lottery games offered by the Rhode Island Lottery (Keno, Numbers, PowerBall®, Wild Money, Million Dollar Raffle and all available Instant Ticket games).




I'm just not buying the idea that the blackjack in RI is any different than any of their other machines. By RI law, it can't be. RI is not licensed for regular class III machines (like Las Vegas). They are only licensed for class II VLT's. On any VLT, the outcome is decided beforehand, and the casinos are run by the state lottery. The definition of VLT's= video LOTTERY terminals (i.e. scratch ticket), controlled by a single server run by the RI lottery. I think the only way to find out for certain would be to contact the Rhode Island State Lottery, and ask them. (And I would be surprised if you can get a straight answer from them even). The number for the RI lottery is (401) 463-6500.

I've been to Twin Rivers before, but I'm not interested in going back. As far as I'm concerned, the place is one big scam. (You can be playing $25 a hand, and the cocktail waitress will charge you for a beer.No comped alcohol, as it's controlled by the RI Lottery).People lined up at the slots and video poker machines, actually thinking they're playing legitimate class III versions as in Vegas. There's no mention anywhere that they're playing inferior class
II VLT versions controlled by the RI lottery. There absolutely should be signs posted, but we know that'll never happen. RI wants the suckers. This whole matter could be moot very soon, as Twin Rivers is said to be filing for bankruptcy. The racing portion ends May 30, and it's thought to be precursor for Chapter 11. The state had been negotiating a takeover, but the talks broke down. I say good riddance to them. I'll stick to Foxwoods for live blackjack.

 

[BleedingChipsSlowly]

The one article claims (incorrectly) they are VLT's but the other two mention nothing about blackjack machines.

If the Shufflemasters (yes, "Royal Match" is a Shufflemaster product) are VLT's then either somebody ripped open a Shufflemaster BJ machine and replaced the workings with VLT firmware, or somebody stole the stickers and graphics off a Shufflemaster and stuck them on a VLT. Either would be a felony.

Here is the ad for the product from Shufflemaster:
(Dead link: http://www.shufflemaster.com/02_eu_products/entertainment_products/electronic_table_games/table_master.asp)

Thanks, Automatic Monkey, for the reasearch and clarification. However, the BJ machines described on the Twin River web site are another Shufflemaster product that was removed. Enamored of their success with the Royal Match machines they installed six tables of this other brand that really sucked. They had "dealers" (read: glorified attendands) that had to process the cashout for you, and each person had their own small video display. It completely killed the group atmosphere that's part of blackjack play.

 

[BleedingChipsSlowly]

From Twin Rivers site-

Twin River Has over 4,700 of the latest Video Lottery Terminals (VLTs) spread throughout two floors. Each floor has rooms to accommodate smoking and non-smoking patrons. Twin River has a wide selection of video slot games to include reel games with various line options, video poker, video keno, blackjack, and wide area Ca$hola progressive jackpot machines. Twin River offers all traditional Lottery games offered by the Rhode Island Lottery (Keno, Numbers, PowerBall®, Wild Money, Million Dollar Raffle and all available Instant Ticket games).




I'm just not buying the idea that the blackjack in RI is any different than any of their other machines. By RI law, it can't be. RI is not licensed for regular class III machines (like Las Vegas). They are only licensed for class II VLT's. On any VLT, the outcome is decided beforehand, and the casinos are run by the state lottery. The definition of VLT's= video LOTTERY terminals (i.e. scratch ticket), controlled by a single server run by the RI lottery. I think the only way to find out for certain would be to contact the Rhode Island State Lottery, and ask them. (And I would be surprised if you can get a straight answer from them even). The number for the RI lottery is (401) 463-6500.

I've been to Twin Rivers before, but I'm not interested in going back. As far as I'm concerned, the place is one big scam. (You can be playing $25 a hand, and the cocktail waitress will charge you for a beer.No comped alcohol, as it's controlled by the RI Lottery).People lined up at the slots and video poker machines, actually thinking they're playing legitimate class III versions as in Vegas. There's no mention anywhere that they're playing inferior class
II VLT versions controlled by the RI lottery. There absolutely should be signs posted, but we know that'll never happen. RI wants the suckers. This whole matter could be moot very soon, as Twin Rivers is said to be filing for bankruptcy. The racing portion ends May 30, and it's thought to be precursor for Chapter 11. The state had been negotiating a takeover, but the talks broke down. I say good riddance to them. I'll stick to Foxwoods for live blackjack.

I played Royal Match machines at Ceasar's in September, and they seemed to work exactly the same as those at Twin River. Many years ago while I was in the Navy the ship I was on was classified as a frigate. When that designation ran afoul of treaty requirements several frigates were reclassified as destroyers to take care of that problem. I would not put it past the RI gaming commission to use similar weazeling for the sake of improving cash flow.

I was at TR last night and the place was crowded and not just at the BJ table. I was unable to get one of the 30 BJ seats after waiting two hours. I think the talk about bankruptcy is just a ploy for negotiating a better deal between TR and RI State. I don't remember the exact figures as to how much the state is raking in, but I do remember it was MUCH more the CT State takes from either Foxwoods or MS.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Yeah, that one got me thinking too. One the other hand, how does the machine know that you and Fred aren't the same person playing two hands and they both lose? Another scenario..suppose you are dealt a hard 19 or 20 and elect to hit, not once but twice?

Even better- you are predestined to win a hand and you are dealt a pair of 10's. You split them... or double...

The reason BJ cannot be a VLT is that the player controls how much money is in play after he sees his hand. A player who could force the machine to deal two wins 80% of the times he is dealt a cold turkey could rapidly bankrupt the casino.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I did a study of the RI Shufflemaster BJ machines and 270 cards were dealt out before dealer changes.

Being the decks/pen is only 6/2, this proves that the dealer change does not indicate a shuffle. The dealer change appears to be on a timer. Thus we will need another approach if this game is to be beaten.

 

[shadroch]

Observing 270 cards proves nothing. Observing 50 dealer changes will begin to show a trend, it still will prove nothing.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Observing 270 cards proves nothing. Observing 50 dealer changes will begin to show a trend, it still will prove nothing.

All it does prove is that if the pen is 6/2, the cards were shuffled without the dealer being changed. There cannot be more than 208 cards + 1 round without a shuffle.

 

[sevencard2003]

need some advice--cause i dont wanna end up on the street broke.

am staying here at binions--free through july11--had 28 days of a comped room--just goes to show u how much ive played their video BJ machine that shuffles after 2 3rds of a 6 deck shoe. and ive always assumed the shuffle took place when they changed dealers. but ive been getting killed on it.

to start with i was over $3000 ahead--and now im down to $1900 left of a $8300 roll i was once up to--and thats my whole WSOP bankroll left--and that was supposed to be used for $2-5 NL at the rio--not for blackjack. played it so heavily i ran up about $1200 worth of comps--which is why i got the free room so long.

has anyone found out a way to tell for sure when it shuffles? and if not advice on how to play it would be helpful. at first i seemed to lose mostly on highly positive counts--i tended to play all 5 spots by myself--betting never over the $3 minimum on negative counts--and often dropping to 1 hand but not always. then on positive counts sometimes but not often--id bet as much as over $120 per hand--(which is $600 if u play all 5 to lower variance--at least im assuming that lowers variance). and i think i was way overbetting my bankroll. so when i started losing so much--i drastically lowered my bet--and now my max bet is at $20 (1% of my roll).

i'm thinking i shouldnt play it anymore at all and stick to shortstacking the $1-2 NL $50 at a time to kill time thru july 11--just to be safe--and not lose this last $1900. i would leave town now and return home maybe if i knew a way to turn my final $870 in binions comps into cash.

but if i do play it--would sure be able to use advice--so i dont lose. main questions are--how can i be sure of when its shuffling? and if u cant tell--how do u change the way u count? and if i lowered my $20 max bet per hand to only $10 per hand--is that enough a spread to overcome the fact most of the time the counts gonna be negative--and ill be losing most $3 bets. i dont start off max betting on positive counts--i raise the bets up slowly depending on how its going and how much the counts positive.

anyone whose not comfortable posting this in the forum--please email [email protected]

 

[Traveller]

Hi there, i don't know much about the game you are playing on this machine other than you think you are playing 2/3 of 6 decks. It sounds to me like you have taken this game on without any proven research as to where the shuffle point is (if any). Are you certain it does not shuffle after every round? Does it display a shuffle at some stage, if so, is this not just for effect?

Anyway, i think you should stop playing immediately and go and play live games. You know what you are getting and at the level you now have to play with the money you have left you are unlikely to attract much heat if you are smart.

Later on if you have some positive feedback on here with something definate re the shuffle point then maybe go and have another go.

 

[Xur]

Since I stopped living on this site, this post makes me want to kill my self.

To the poster that was talking about how the fricking blackjack tables were VLTs....YOU MORON. They have slot machines that have blackjack. Go read again. If you look at Twin Rivers it says they have this that and the other slots and VIDEO BLACKJACK TABLES. Same with Newport Grand. They do not put them in the same boat as slot machines because they are not VLTs. :flame:

To the random person who is possibly in at Binions....THIS IS FOR THE MACHINES IN RHODE ISLAND. POST ELSE WHERE POOP HEAD!

Side note: To CP, AM, JonDoe, Frog, and anyone else who I got to know in the few months I spent learning to count; Let me know how the BJ bash was!

 

[flyingtriangle]

Twin River and Newport Grand Virtual

Twin River already removed the virtual machines you are referring too and Newport Grand said they are getting rid of them soon also. It's sad.
Someone asked if you can double after split and the answer is yes. However you can not resplit aces. I'm not sure about the penetration. Some one said 4.5-5 but I am not sure how he calculated that.
The game seems legit and I have had some success there. However I lost pretty bad the last time I went. Also one night a guy started a fight with us because some of us were wonging in and out.

 

[johndoe]

The one I scouted was a waste of time. 3/6 pen. I think it was the Grand.

 

[Nick_Escalantes]

Played a bit at Twin River today, they have 10 blackjack tables currently. Most at $10, one at $25. $5 during the week. I left after I watched 3 Asian women play. The blackjack pit here heavlily Asian players, similiar to the CT casinos.

They were doing well, betting $50 per hand, about $500 bk roll each. Then they put up $150 each, they got a 19, 19, and 20 DD ($300). Dealer has 6 up card, pulls 8, 2, 5. 21. Ouch...

Then they lost the next 2 hands at $200 each, dealer made 21 with a bunch of cards. They were pissed. The whole scene looked very disturbing how the dealer made 21 back-to-back as the bets increased. After that, I knew to walk-out being up $100 for the morning.