The cost of playing blackjack

[bluewhale]

Ian Anderson has a very good reason to tip. He is not tipping to "be nice", or because "he ought to". It's sctricly a way of gaining cover. He is playing at a high enough level where the tips are a small % of the EV, so it's not costing much to tip, relatively.

ChefJJ has a good approach to thinking about this. Some people think you should tip, some dont, but nobody is right or wrong. The most important thing he mentioned is, don't take it personally! If you think tipping is important then do it! If not, then dont! That simple.

i couldn't agree with you more. it is a personal decision. which is why i take it personally when people criticize me for not making the same decision that they make.

My point: if you are too stingy to throw a dollar or two, why are you gambling?

I'm getting the overall impression that all you really care about is yourself
Just so you know,in the off chance no one has ever told you,when enjoying a comped meal it is normal to tip as if you were paying for it.Or more.
When we eat at a nice steakhouse,for example,$20 a person is the average.

shadroch, you seem to think that whatever is "normal" is the right thing to do. at one point in time it was normal to have slaves, it never made it right. just because it something is a social norm, doesn't mean it should be one.

these remarks show a sense of superiority. if you want to tip, go ahead, but don't tell me what i should or shouldn't do.

 

[shadroch]

The old-once upon a time,people did this,whatever.
You know what-If you don't want to tip ,don't. If you don't mind people thinking your an ass,why should I.Just don't try to rationailize it.
As I said,show me a book written about gambling that tells you its okay for a recreational player not to tip.But,I forgot,just because everyone else does it,doesn't mean you should.
Let me ask you this- Besides being cheap,why wouldn't you tip a dealer who is polite and friendly?

 

[ChefJJ]

i couldn't agree with you more. it is a personal decision. which is why i take it personally when people criticize me for not making the same decision that they make.





shadroch, you seem to think that whatever is "normal" is the right thing to do. at one point in time it was normal to have slaves, it never made it right. just because it something is a social norm, doesn't mean it should be one.

these remarks show a sense of superiority. if you want to tip, go ahead, but don't tell me what i should or shouldn't do.

How does asking why you can't tip a buck or two to a dealer giving you good service give off a sense of superiority? I just wanted to know why you feel that tipping a dealer is dumb? Now I really don't care...don't get their feathers ruffled about a discussion, and now you want to call people hippocrites and having a sense of superiority.

That wasn't the original part of this thread...it was the cost of playing blackjack. Some people say tips are part of "doing business" while others feel that it cuts into the bottom line. Not that one set is scum and the others not.

It's all good, but I'm out of this name-calling discussion.

Good luck

 

[SystemsTrader]

having read through this tread, there seems to be a lot of controversy about tipping... especially after scott mentioned he tries to avoid tipping whenever possible.
now a lot of people have said that you should tip, and that people who don't are cheap, sick, inconsiderate, etc. etc....

these people are hippocrites of the worst kind. frist off, tipping is not required. its an added incentive for the person rendering the service. i've heard people say "but dealers make 50% or more of their wage from tipping". true. thats not a reason to tip though, that just shows how cheap the casino is. the casino has put the burden of paying their employees on you, and you are foolish enough to go along with it.

lastly, for those who still think i'm an inconsiderate prick... how many times have you tipped the person at macdonalds? or any other fast food restaurant. or the girl packing your bag at wal-mart? or the person who runs the cash at best buy? those people make next to nothing as well, and are in the service industry. why not tip them? cause theres no social pressure to tip them. the only reason you tip is to ease the social pressure on you. and now you're here telling us to tip and expect us to feel bad about not tipping???

Blue Whale you make some interesting points and it just shows how the culture of tipping is really screwed up.

There is a simple solution for everyone regarding the tipping and it is to keep detailed records of your expenses down to the penny. You will probably be surprised by a few things. This taught me to keep my tips very minimal. It also showed me which area of my expenses were dragging down my EV. The other thing players should do is calculate their exact mileage and just using your vehicles EPA fuel consumption rating (which will be low) you will be able to determine your approx. fuel costs. By tracking expenses when I started I learned that counting wasn't worth it to me so in order to make it worth my while I doubled my account size and started a small team which reduced costs. I'm not trying to be negative here but if most small solo counters looked closely at their expenses they might find it more financially worthwhile to work at McDonalds!

 

[shadroch]

Hopefully most small counters are people like myself.Learning the game and accepting the fact that counting with a $5-$30 bet spead is not going to get you rich.
But dropping $35,000 a year on law school isn't going to make you rich either.
Its what you do after you have learned the game that will make you rich,in both cases.
I can't imagine someone going thru the time and trouble it takes to be a succcessful counter ,only to continue betting small amounts.
If you are trying to make a living playing BJ,have a $2,000 BR and are strictly a red chipper,you would be much better off getting a real job.

 

[supercoolmancool]

If you have the skills the money will come. If you train yourself to become good enough I am pretty sure you could build your bankroll up even with just 2K or you could eaisly form a team or get a financial backer.

 

[shadroch]

If you have the skills the money will come. If you train yourself to become good enough I am pretty sure you could build your bankroll up even with just 2K or you could eaisly form a team or get a financial backer.

Think about it.
With a $2,000 BR,your top bets shouldn't be much more than $20.In a day,you might wager $5,000. Lets say a 1.5% return,so you make $75 a day.
After expenses,what do you have to 'grow" your bankroll? Perhaps $20?
Assuming you can live in a city large enough to allow you to count cards on a pretty steady basis for $50 a day.

Forming a team-Sure,but where does the BR come from? Four people with $2,000 each isn't much better than a solo player.

I'd suspect any financial backer would want to see results,and ask the question-If you can make money,why do you need me?
One of lifes paradoxes is that the less you need money,the easier it is to borrow.

 

[supercoolmancool]

Think about it.
With a $2,000 BR,your top bets shouldn't be much more than $20.In a day,you might wager $5,000. Lets say a 1.5% return,so you make $75 a day.
After expenses,what do you have to 'grow" your bankroll? Perhaps $20?
Assuming you can live in a city large enough to allow you to count cards on a pretty steady basis for $50 a day.

Forming a team-Sure,but where does the BR come from? Four people with $2,000 each isn't much better than a solo player.

I'd suspect any financial backer would want to see results,and ask the question-If you can make money,why do you need me?
One of lifes paradoxes is that the less you need money,the easier it is to borrow.

If you were really good you could make it with just $2000 because your advantage would be through the roof. If you have 4 people with $2000 then each player can play like they had $8000 which is plenty enough.

 

[shadroch]

If you were really good you could make it with just $2000 because your advantage would be through the roof. If you have 4 people with $2000 then each player can play like they had $8000 which is plenty enough.

And what happens when all four players hit a bad streak of variance at the same time? You can easily lose half or more of the team BR,because you are wildly overbetting.

If I were to offer you $1,000 for every player who wanted to turned pro with a $2,000 BR and made it,but you had to give me $1 for everyone who fails,would you take the bet?

 

[ScottH]

And what happens when all four players hit a bad streak of variance at the same time? You can easily lose half or more of the team BR,because you are wildly overbetting.

If I were to offer you $1,000 for every player who wanted to turned pro with a $2,000 BR and made it,but you had to give me $1 for everyone who fails,would you take the bet?

Why did you assume that everyone would be wildly overbetting? Where did supercoolmancool even suggest anything like that? You can still bet properly with an 8k bankroll. If four people have 2000 they can each play like they have 8000 and it will not increase the variance, but it will increase the EV four times.

The same can be said about a high-stakes team, "What if everyone hits a bad steak of variance at the same time?" Well, of course their bankroll will take a big hit too. What's your point? That's obvious, it would hurt the bankroll to any team, no matter what the stakes.

 

[Jeff25]

And what happens when all four players hit a bad streak of variance at the same time? You can easily lose half or more of the team BR,because you are wildly overbetting.

I play on a team like this with one other counter. We have had many wild swings. One session not to long ago we lost 25% of our BR. An average session for us is a win or loss of 10% of our BR.

 

[supercoolmancool]

tell me if this is right:

Let's say you have a $20000 bankroll and you found a bet with a 2% advantage then you would bet $400. If you win that bet and have $20400 and find another 2% advantage you would bet $408. If you lost and now only have $19600 then you would bet $392 with a 2% edge. This way you are playing with a zero percent risk of ruin and maximize EV.

So if our team did that then we wouldn't be overbetting our bankroll right? Problem solved.

 

[shadroch]

tell me if this is right:

Let's say you have a $20000 bankroll and you found a bet with a 2% advantage then you would bet $400. If you win that bet and have $20400 and find another 2% advantage you would bet $408. If you lost and now only have $19600 then you would bet $392 with a 2% edge. This way you are playing with a zero percent risk of ruin and maximize EV.

So if our team did that then we wouldn't be overbetting our bankroll right? Problem solved.

Que dice?

:whip:

 

[ScottH]

Que dice?

:whip:

He is referring to full kelly betting. Only problem with that is that once you get down to a certain point it is useless, although it theoretically still works. Like if you get down to a 50 dollar bankroll and you have a 1% advantage you have to bet 50 cents. That's not practical or worth the time. So kelly betting theoretically gives you a 0% ROR, but in real-life it has a nice sized ROR. Once you get to tiny bankrolls you just lower your bet, but it's not practical.

 

[renegadexxxx]

re

go allin and hope... its the only way

 

[shadroch]

He is referring to full kelly betting. Only problem with that is that once you get down to a certain point it is useless, although it theoretically still works. Like if you get down to a 50 dollar bankroll and you have a 1% advantage you have to bet 50 cents. That's not practical or worth the time. So kelly betting theoretically gives you a 0% ROR, but in real-life it has a nice sized ROR. Once you get to tiny bankrolls you just lower your bet, but it's not practical.

I understand Full Kelly. I don't use it for gambling,but it actually works well with investing in stocks.
I just don't understand what that has to do with a four person team with an $8,000 BR counting cards.

 

[supercoolmancool]

Yah my 4 person team would use full kelly so we wouldn't lose all of our money. Basically I just want to know if full kelly is the way to go or if it is better to do something else.

 

[shadroch]

Team play is a subject I haven't gotten to yet,so I don't know.
But I would think that four people working as a team with an $8,000 BR would be playing different tables.If each has a max bet out,loses,keeps the max bet out and loses again,you've just chopped off 10% or so of your total BR.
If you are playing minimum bets at three tables,calling in a BP when the count is high,the BPs bets would need to be pretty high to make it work.
Unless you are sleeping in a van and hitting a buffet once a day,expenses will drown you.
But,I admit I'm straying far from my limited area of expertise which is getting much more from the casinos than I earn.Maybe someday I'll get into team play,but not anytime soon.

 

[ScottH]

Team play is a subject I haven't gotten to yet,so I don't know.
But I would think that four people working as a team with an $8,000 BR would be playing different tables.If each has a max bet out,loses,keeps the max bet out and loses again,you've just chopped off 10% or so of your total BR.
If you are playing minimum bets at three tables,calling in a BP when the count is high,the BPs bets would need to be pretty high to make it work.
Unless you are sleeping in a van and hitting a buffet once a day,expenses will drown you.
But,I admit I'm straying far from my limited area of expertise which is getting much more from the casinos than I earn.Maybe someday I'll get into team play,but not anytime soon.

Team play is the way to go if you can find a trustworthy team. You can increase your stakes and EV substantially without increasing your risk. Or you can play at the same stakes with a much lower ROR. Either way, you stand to benefit by teaming up with honest people.

 

[shadroch]

That is a school of thought. Obviously not the only one.