'Dice Control' Denounced

[Katweezel]

Dice control? No way, Jose!

There is a wealth of quality posts on this thread, all well worth reading, right back to the start. Down here in Australia, craps is not real popular and few people bother with learning what looks like complicated rules to the uninitiated. Craps was never a big part of this culture. I got interested, especially on 3 occasions when a fleet of American warships was in town, in the 90s. I walked into the casino and wondered what the whoopin and hollerin was, way over there. On inspection, it was a group of 80 or so American sailors in uniform, all absorbed in a hot craps streak. I joined the fun.
That was the first time I realized what a fun game this can be! There is no other casino game that can get the joint jumpin quite like a hot dice spell, and everyone is winning, hey? It's a pity there isn't much interest down here, and I have not seen action again, like I saw with the US sailors on 3 occasions. My dice career ended in more recent times when a pc told me no setting the dice.

I was once a firm believer in dice are not able to be influenced by the thrower. Now, I am a firm believer in the opposite: They can definitely be influenced, I now believe. Chef's clear explanations and clear ideas leave no doubts in my mind. What changed my mind happened over maybe 15 years of playing another dice game: Backgammon. (played with two dice with rounded edges, smaller than craps dice, and thrown from cups) I was once a hotshot at Backgammon until some Israelis cleaned me out. Anyway, I taught a 14-year-old relative how to play properly. He is now 30.

I thought I was pretty good at 'visualising' the required dice, and taught him to do that. By the time he reached 26, he was consistently flogging me unmercifully. We would both be playing the same basic strategy, but, invariably, he would be able to roll the required number (and the ONLY number, such as a 9 for example,) at exactly the right time. It is uncanny, to be on the receiving end of this kind of stuff, consistently, and if I hadn't seen it myself, literally hundreds of times over the years, I never would have believed it.

So now, I am a firm believer in what Chef says about the possibilities of affecting the dice results, PLUS I am a firm believer in something quite bizarre and pure voodoo: "The human mind can also influence the dice." My relative has never played craps, but we talk about it and he says he cannot see why his 'mind stuff' can't work just as well with them. "After all, they are just the same. Dice. Only a bit bigger without rounded edges."

My dice-throwing career never got off the ground. Now, I would like to learn from a pro, such as Chef, how to bet like a pro. And how to pick a thrower who can deliver a one-hour whoop and holler, just like the sailors had. YEEEEEHAAAAAA! Chef, you are my best bet. :cat:

 

[ChefJJ]

Katweezel, I couldn't consider myself to be a "pro" from the purest sense of the word, but I do appreciate the kind words. It sounds like you've probably read some of my craps philosophies on my blog, but I will say that my approach is one of many...and one that is probably seen as inferior to those masters such as Wong or Scoblete. But my thoughts relate to what works for me and some other close friends that have taken to work this way.

I've always felt that the best way to excel at something is to completely understand it, and that you never stop learning. Craps is a beatable game in the sense that it is both physical and mental...and you have to be prepared in both ways. Only one or the other won't get you that far.

For the sake of self-deprecation, I rarely have a throw that makes everybody a ton of money. I'll be the first to admit that, and would venture to say that those hour-long throws have more to do with luck that much of anything else. My view on winning AP Craps is producing consistently successful hands that result in rolling the numbers that you are betting on...which should be limited. I'd like to say that my approach is like a sharpshooter that picks off his targets before the 7 hits....and the 7 will hit. :flame: That's inevitable.

Got back from some AC time earlier in the week, and that's how it was. Didn't set the table on fire, but I was successful in nailing multiple hits on a vast majority of my throws to produce wins. Had a good time as well, so how could one go wrong there? :grin:

good luck

 

[pogostick]

I have been to AC twice since I have visited this board and had forgot about it to tell you the truth. Good to read the new posts.. I never thought much about dice control until I read some of these post,both pros and cons. There is something to it. There was a guy at the end of the table that was setting the dice and had some good rolls. He would only bet when the dice came to him and was the only one winning at the table. I later talked to him about dice control and he said he always set the dice on pyramid 3s where the 6 and 8 would show on all sides. I had heard about this setting ,but paid it no mind after reading some articles about how impossible it was to control dice on a reagular DT because of the back knotty pad to prevent that. Always throw to the bottom of the pad as light as possible. Call it what ever, but he says it works for him. Pogo

 

[ChefJJ]

Pogo,

Sounds like he was using the "Flying V" or "3V" set as you described...by far my "go to" as well.

As you've probably heard me say in one form or another, AP Craps has several forms or philosophies...the derivations of which depend on how skilled the player is physically (my opinion ). Some, like myself rely on consistency in producing on-axis throws. Others rely on controlled off-axis rolls, which is kind of like taking another route to get to the same place.

All in all, there are ways to gain an edge. But most disagree, and that is good for our longevity :joker:

good luck

 

[pogostick]

Hi chefjj ! I am going to ac tomorrow and will be at the Trump Marina for 3 days. Although my game is BJ , I love craps and have been playing for years. I have won & lost. I had always taken a pass line bet , taken odds and 2 come bets. The guy I was speaking of in my last post played the pass line and placed the 6&8 for $30 each and if either hit ,he would press each up $18 to $48 throwing in the extra $1 making the payoff on either 6 or 8 $56 . How many time have you seen the 6 and 8 repeated time after time . I will post when I get back to let you know how I did using his method. I am going to play BJ ,but I am always looking for a hot roll at the crap table. Pogo

 

[takinfromindians97]

Nerds with no life

NO way stanford wong doesnt sell a method he just explains the ins and outs there is no method to it just the different sets, and grips, after that its all in practicing and learning how the dice move and how to help them move how you want to. NOw as for the fact some people cant do it big deal i know alot of people who think counting cards is impossible and could never do it but we all know sure a **** that it can be done. Just cause some shmoop with no girlfriend or anything to do but sit and blog says its garbage doesnt mean it doesnt work. Maybe he didnt have the heart and soul to put into his practice and learning, maybe he had zero hand eye cordination, who knows. ALl i know is that i have seen it work and sure as hell have made it work for me plenty of times i actually have been at the craps table more then blackjack lately cause you win faster and the payouts are better on some of the bets. I think that people should get girlfriends or at least a blow up doll and some kind of hobby besides bashing one of the worlds greatest blackjack minds. I think stanford wong deserves our respect no matter what and if he says he can do it why not believe him why does he have to lie not for his book he could just publish it under another name of someone claiming to be an expert but instead he wrote it from personal experience because thats what it is an experience hes had not a made up story. But i love that people think its not possible just like morons who think people cant shuffle track, yes its very hard and not many can do it but not many people can jump a harley davidson over school buses but weve all heard of evil kenivel now havent we. ALL you idiots do its make it so me and guys like me need less camo which means more money so i should be saying thank you. THANK YOU TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT THE CASINOS ARE AND UNBEATABLE ENTITY, YOU ARE ALL HELPING ME FLUFF MY POCKETS UP MORE THEN EVER.

 

[ragroller]

Katweezel ,

Crown does allow you to set the dice

 

[Katweezel]

Yo

Katweezel ,

Crown does allow you to set the dice

YO! Nice report Ragroller. I am studying Chef's betting strategies, as my dice-throwing technique is about 30 years behind. I don't need to be a whiz thrower to consistently win at this game; but I do need to understand and implement how to bet like a pro. Right, Chef? Now, how to spot a likely winning thrower... to bet on. Hmmm... :cat:

 

[mk1]

what kind of strategy does chef imply on craps? can you PM some info on this. i think DC works but like everything needs to be practiced. been practicing for a month now. But need more practice. but there is $3min craps so it'll be good where i play at.

 

[Katweezel]

Chef link

what kind of strategy does chef imply on craps? can you PM some info on this. i think DC works but like everything needs to be practiced. been practicing for a month now. But need more practice. but there is $3min craps so it'll be good where i play at.

Chef has a great website. Check it out, you will find his link on some of his previous posts on this thread. :cat:

 

[aslan]

if thats so im gona to kill the casino !

If you set the dice and at the same time all your throws appear to float in perfect tandem spinning on a single axis and coming to a short stop due to a bit of backspin, I don't think it would take a genius to conclude the possibility of dice control and thus require you to hit the backboard. Dealers see throwers all day long and they are constant witness to random throwing by dice stters, with one dye going this way, and the other going that way. If suddenly, and rarely I might add, they see a thrower who seems to contrl the dice consistently and uniformly in his throws, and who also never hits the backboard, I think it is safe to assume that their suspicions will be aroused, especially when you begin to chalk up some extraordinarily long sessions. Anyway, it's always worth the try, and you can always resort to hitting the flat spot just below the pyramids, another tell, but generally considered a legal throw I believe. Lastly, acording to Wong, you van actually hit the pyramids with a little backspin and you will still be able to manage a little control. Of this I am a bit skeptical, since any touch of the pyramids has a randonizing effect, but then again, he has studied it, and I am talking off the top of my head.

 

[sneakykid]

So when you throw the dices, you want a little backspin but spinning together?

Do you throw at an angle down, or do you throw it up

 

[aslan]

So when you throw the dices, you want a little backspin but spinning together?

Do you throw at an angle down, or do you throw it up

Actually, more like a line drive.

 

[sneakykid]

Actually, more like a line drive.

what do you mean by that

 

[aslan]

what do you mean by that

As in baseball, not a high arching trajectory, but more of a flat trajectory, somewhat perpendicular to the table.

 

[ChefJJ]

what kind of strategy does chef imply on craps?

Optimal strategy in craps is to bet only when a shooter has a consistent edge over the house (e.g. by physically altering the probabilities of the dice outcomes).

The next best thing is to limit your exposure to random rollers by wagering only on the core bets (Pass/Don't Pass and/or Place 6 & 8) while betting on APs, namely yourself.

There is no way to combo bets to gain an edge over the house in lieu of shooting with an advantage. The only wagers that grant the player an advantage are the Place, Come, Don't Pass, and Don't Come. HOWEVER, the Pass & Come bets give you the edge ONLY during the come-out phase....the Don't bets ONLY during the point-cycle (after the come-out).

good luck

 

[ChefJJ]

So when you throw the dices, you want a little backspin but spinning together?

Do you throw at an angle down, or do you throw it up

In my opinion (via application), it depends on the table bounciness. And it also depends on how you throw. It takes a good amount of experimentation, but I use the following rules of thumb:

Less arc on a bouncy table...bouncier tables typically produce a good amount of rebound, and can reject the dice higher (i.e. higher up on the pyramid wall, or even over the wall). To keep the dice under control, I like to use a soft, low-arc throw that hits somewhere near the end of the Come box and end up at or near the wall base.

More arc on a dead table...harder tables typically accept a high-arc shot whithout catapulting them. The caution here is to avoid applying excessive backspin to the lob because the trajectory and spin combination can lead to the dice never getting to the wall, unless you are pitching them all the way to the end of the table. In this circumstance, I like to throw the dice in the area of where one would make an Odds bet.

In either case, less velocity is key...the goal is to get the dice to kiss lightly off the base of the wall, or even come a bit short. The house's tolerance with short-thrown dice often dictates what you can and can't get away with (which leads me to say that an AP arguably gets more out of his/her tokes than in any other game in the casino that one can earn an edge in :cool2

good luck

 

[sneakykid]

(Dead link: http://axispower.proboards12.com/)

is that a good crap forum to learn from?

 

[ChefJJ]

It's a pay site, and I've gotten mixed reviews on it. I think some pros are on there, but I cannot directly attest to it. Might be worth trying to contact Heavy (moderator) and see if he'll give you a free trial membership to see if it works for you.

good luck

 

[ragroller]

how do u even contact the mod, cant even register or do anything without logging in