Spanish 21 book
- Thread starter QFIT
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Pretty sure they are. But you don't even have to ask because you can always tell from the match bet payoffs. Maybe it makes sense assuming they were afraid of too much confusion if dealers had to remember different payoffs depending on decks. Using 8 deck paytables for 6 decks would be a pretty colossal error I think.21forme said:
The difference in HA between 6 & 8 decks for a BS player is almost nothing anyway.
I don't know - I thought the actual BS play hit/stand/double etc differences are pretty easy to learn - guess hardest part is worrying about how many cards make up your total if that's what you mean.
Whatever you do, stand on suited 7's vs dealer 7
Couldn't find $10 tables until noon shift on a weekday at 3-4 places a month ago.
Any shareable thoughts, publicly or privately, yet on what you/anyone have read so far? Broadly speaking, has she at least made you a believer yet ?
I should have got the PDF version. O well. Patience I have.
The difference between 6D and 8D for BS isn't much but for a counted game it is. There's a chart on p. 90 with SCOREs of all the different permutations of the game. SCORE for S17 6D game is 27 with counting and I18 indices. SCORE for S17 8D game is 16.
BTW, there is already a page of errors published on her web site, (Dead link: http://www.spanishcountess.com/) . There's more discussion of the book on Schlesinger's site, too.
I'm tempted to include the indices on a BS card I bring to the casino with me, but it's too risky, incase someone wants to see it and asks about the numbers. Any thoughts on how to camo it?
BTW, there is already a page of errors published on her web site, (Dead link: http://www.spanishcountess.com/) . There's more discussion of the book on Schlesinger's site, too.
I'm tempted to include the indices on a BS card I bring to the casino with me, but it's too risky, incase someone wants to see it and asks about the numbers. Any thoughts on how to camo it?
I'm glad to see that. Page 35 confused the beejezus out of me.I read it about a dozen times and was scratching my head as to how what she wrote made sense.It kind of sux that I ended up paying $32 for a non-edited book.The book may turn out to be very informative,but the author is not a Renzey or Jacobson when it comes to writing.But then again,who is?
Katarina Walker
New Member
>Where was Janecek, Wong, Auston, Wiz, Bryce, even Norm, etc, all capable perhaps of doing what you have done but, for >some reason, apparently not interested in doing it. I even asked some of them but it was "maybe later, no time now" kind of >answer.
Thanks.
I am first for a couple of reasons:
1. I was in the right place at the right time.
I started playing Pontoon (Australian Spanish 21) because all the Blackjack games were CSM and the Pontoon were hand-shuffled. I didn't have a choice.
You'll laugh at this one: I was playing Pontoon for years (and making making excellent money; more than enough to live comfortably on) before I realised that the HE was half the HE for the Blackjack game at my casino. (Burswood in Perth, where HE Blackjack is around 0.7% - ENHC, no surrender - and HE Pontoon is 0.34%.)
I had always thought that it was such a shame that I couldn't play Blackjack - the real game - until I eventually got wise about the fact that the BJ was actually the inferior of the two, by a mile.
It was always going to be an Australian that cracked this game.
2. My husband is the director of his own law firm (i.e. he is grossly overpaid), so I can do whatever I want. If I want to spend 6-12 months writing a simulator, I can. Not many people have the time to do something like this. It took 3 years.
Anyway, if you think SP21 can't be beaten, just look at the facts: house edges as low as 0.37% in the USA (0.31% in Australia), good EORs (the Ace EOR is huge), and a massive scope for play variation as the count increases from neutral. It is these last two that impact on the advantage increment per +1 increase in the true count. In BJ, it is about 0.5%. But because of the Ace EOR being so big, and the huge scope for play variation, in SP21, the advantage increases by 0.65% per +1 increase in the TC (using all indices). So if you're not convinced, you're one of a rapidly diminishing group of non-believers. A group that does NOT include people like Wong, Schlesinger, Wizard of Odds, etc. It's evidence-based, not faith-based. I'm a trained programmer and mathematician, not a system-seller.
Thanks.
I am first for a couple of reasons:
1. I was in the right place at the right time.
I started playing Pontoon (Australian Spanish 21) because all the Blackjack games were CSM and the Pontoon were hand-shuffled. I didn't have a choice.
You'll laugh at this one: I was playing Pontoon for years (and making making excellent money; more than enough to live comfortably on) before I realised that the HE was half the HE for the Blackjack game at my casino. (Burswood in Perth, where HE Blackjack is around 0.7% - ENHC, no surrender - and HE Pontoon is 0.34%.)
I had always thought that it was such a shame that I couldn't play Blackjack - the real game - until I eventually got wise about the fact that the BJ was actually the inferior of the two, by a mile.
It was always going to be an Australian that cracked this game.
2. My husband is the director of his own law firm (i.e. he is grossly overpaid), so I can do whatever I want. If I want to spend 6-12 months writing a simulator, I can. Not many people have the time to do something like this. It took 3 years.
Anyway, if you think SP21 can't be beaten, just look at the facts: house edges as low as 0.37% in the USA (0.31% in Australia), good EORs (the Ace EOR is huge), and a massive scope for play variation as the count increases from neutral. It is these last two that impact on the advantage increment per +1 increase in the true count. In BJ, it is about 0.5%. But because of the Ace EOR being so big, and the huge scope for play variation, in SP21, the advantage increases by 0.65% per +1 increase in the TC (using all indices). So if you're not convinced, you're one of a rapidly diminishing group of non-believers. A group that does NOT include people like Wong, Schlesinger, Wizard of Odds, etc. It's evidence-based, not faith-based. I'm a trained programmer and mathematician, not a system-seller.
Katarina Walker
New Member
I am sure you are a very good Blackjack player. But my book is half theory (half practical), so it has a lot of math which can be complicated and difficult to understand if you don't have a solid math background (i.e. college math). I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.shadroch said:
Wong charged over $100 for "Blackjack in Asia", and Laurance Scott charges hundreds of dollars for his Roulette kit. "Beyond Counting" goes for over $500 on eBay sometimes.
When material is brand new, when there's nothing like it on the market, it can fetch a very high price. But I'm not is this to get rich, so I chose a normal price for the book of $24.99. Here in Australia, you cannot buy a book under $30. You Americans are so spoilt
I'm sorry that you find it a tough read and that you don't like my writing style. It is almost impossible to explain gaming math to people in a fun and interesting kind of way. I'm a programmer and gaming mathematician, not a novelist. Actually, I got very high marks in English at high school, unlike the other math geeks, so I'm a better writer than most programmers and math geeks. However, that is not saying much. I am no Tolstoy (who was, incidentally, a gambling addict.)
The book was proof-read and edited by Don Schlesinger.
I spent 3 years working on it, mostly fulltime, so at $10 a year, I think you got an OK deal.
All technical books and programs have data errors, especially books that cover brand-new ground. (Microsoft Word still has bugs after 15 years, and my book is totally based on a program I wrote.) Mine actually has very few for a book with that much data. There are many talented people going through my book this very moment with a fine-toothed comb, running sims, doing calcs, and very few errors have been found, and none that have any real financial impact.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
I have the book too and I have a confession: I've been playing SP21 with an advantage for quite a while. The book is confusing in some ways however I already have gotten enough additional information from it to make it worth the green chip I paid for it in my first hour of play. On another site seven dwarves and a monkey are busy rewriting Kat's book with their after-commentary, and that is extremely valuable too.shadroch said:
SP21 is not easy and it is not for beginners, for a variety of reasons, however for an advanced East Coast or Canadian player it offers a valuable opportunity. That said, I think especially with the S17 variant a level 1 count really isn't going to extract maximum benefit from the game. A few features of the game were hinted at but not thoroughly discussed in the book, and as an active player I'm glad for that!
Ferretnparrot
Well-Known Member
21forme said:
Perhaps you coudl place dots, or a scratch with a razor blade. on the squares that encompass each play, in such a mannor that a dot on the top line of the box is 1, a dot in the upper right corner is 2 and so on in that fashion around the box up to 7, you shoudl be able to know which ones are positive and negetive based on your prior blackjack experience, and there should only be so many dots on the card as there isnt always a playable index for every play.
This is really exciting, i kinda liek the idea of playing a game that nobody knos you can beat. This could also be a good cover, say they think your counting cards, then you drop bets on the sp21 table.
Ferret
blackchipjim
Well-Known Member
How much different
I have played different games for cover in casinos and have for the most part kept them off my trail. I'm intrigued by the thought of sp21 being an advantage game with all the hoopla being posted. I was wondering if a modified level one counting system could indeed be used or is it really out of the question. blackchipjim
I have played different games for cover in casinos and have for the most part kept them off my trail. I'm intrigued by the thought of sp21 being an advantage game with all the hoopla being posted. I was wondering if a modified level one counting system could indeed be used or is it really out of the question. blackchipjim
I was just curious what led you to where you are so thanks very much for sharing. However it happened, it's about darn time lol.Katarina Walker said:
Really now, truthfully, don't you find it at least maybe the little bit redundant to say a lawyer is grossly overpaid? :grin:
Never crossed my mind you're a system-seller. I can't imagine how I would have left that impression but, if I did, my profound apologies as I can imagine little else more insulting. Except maybe thinking I would be thinking that lol.
Anyway, I just meant up until now, from what little I thought I knew, which was next to nothing, obviously lol, from a few discussions on the subject, I wasn't convinced the game was beatable in a meaningful way. Seeing somewhere here recently a SCORE of 16 for what appeared to be the 8D AC game didn't really thrill me either.
No matter, your book arrived today and I'm very much looking forward to reading it.
Any general comments as to why you chose to share this knowledge with the world with a book? Are you retiring from live play or something? Not sure, if I knew what you knew, I'd be sharing it lol.
But, now that I have a copy, if you find you can't choose to remove it from the market immediately, I hope you sell a milliion copies.
Ferretnparrot
Well-Known Member
I just took a look at a sp21 bs chart, and it gave me a headache, i dont think that the game would be as EASY to beat as blackjack in terms of playing strategy. It took me a long time to memorise regular basic strategy to where i know it in and out, the sp21 chart seems to have even more random plays and exceptions thrown about it and is deturing me away form even thinking of trying it. Im sure for all of the plays where you double only if you have less than x cards there is a very small index number that you have to memorise to change the numkber of cards you dont double for, so for each of those plays you have to rember one you have to double, two the number of cards you have not to double, three the index number(s) when to change the number of cards not to double, four the new number of cards for the play in which not to double is correct, so thats four peices of information for ONE SINGLE PLAY, multiply that by 150 for all the plays and combine it with the aditional double/surrender information of the other chart and you got yourself a hell of a lot of information to memorise.
Idk if id have the patience to memorise that for 3 months straight
Idk if id have the patience to memorise that for 3 months straight
Ferret: Don't be intimidated by the basic strategy. Just use a cheat sheet card as a crutch initially. Over time I think the BS will become intuitive. For example, if you have 6 cards you hit hard 17 against an 8-10. Why? You want to shoot for the 7 card 21 that plays 3-1, and dealer has a good chance at 18-20 so you probably lose anyway. 16 v 3-4 and 15 v 5-6 work the same way.
The best part about the game is the ploppies have no clue how to play it and they for the most part realize that. Their loss rate is also so high that they usually have no staying power. The match side bet only worsens their pain. I played heads up for at least an hour at a very crowded casino 24/7 which is unheard of there! You have a nice moderate amount of ploppies cycling in and out of the table, and most of them will have little confidence in questioning your play.
The best part about the game is the ploppies have no clue how to play it and they for the most part realize that. Their loss rate is also so high that they usually have no staying power. The match side bet only worsens their pain. I played heads up for at least an hour at a very crowded casino 24/7 which is unheard of there! You have a nice moderate amount of ploppies cycling in and out of the table, and most of them will have little confidence in questioning your play.
It looks worse than it is. I was a little overwhelmed at first. I typed up a BS chart and started practicing. It took about 30 minutes to get down the basic decisions. Take Mrs. Walker's advice and start with just the H/S/D/P decisions. You'll see a lot of similarities to BJ.
The hit decisions dependent on the number of cards is a lot of common sense and you can have a BS chart for that.
The indexes don't seem too difficult either. I plan to learn 25 indexes plus 8 surrender indexes. That should be more than enough and a fraction of the BJ indexes I know.
The hit decisions dependent on the number of cards is a lot of common sense and you can have a BS chart for that.
The indexes don't seem too difficult either. I plan to learn 25 indexes plus 8 surrender indexes. That should be more than enough and a fraction of the BJ indexes I know.
la_dee_daa
Well-Known Member
just a quick question. are there any sp21 games in the BC vancouver area without csms?