Spanish 21 book

shadroch

Well-Known Member
I'd think that someone with a 190 mathmatical IQ would be able to handle it fairly well.
I just got in from two days in AC and gave SP21 a shot.
A couple of observations.
I was there on a Monday and Tuesday in March and it was very hard finding a seat at a table.Wonging would have been futile.Can only imagine what good weather will bring.I wasn't counting,and wasn't even playing total correct BS.Most people at the table play it just like BJ and get killed.Flatbetting $10,I was once down $130,but ended up losing only $50.
I found it draining and a bit boring,to be honest.Hopefully,having a feel for the game will help me get thru Mrs Walkers book better.
 

InPlay

Banned
shadroch said:
I'd think that someone with a 190 mathmatical IQ would be able to handle it fairly well.
I just got in from two days in AC and gave SP21 a shot.
A couple of observations.
I was there on a Monday and Tuesday in March and it was very hard finding a seat at a table.Wonging would have been futile.Can only imagine what good weather will bring.I wasn't counting,and wasn't even playing total correct BS.Most people at the table play it just like BJ and get killed.Flatbetting $10,I was once down $130,but ended up losing only $50.
I found it draining and a bit boring,to be honest.Hopefully,having a feel for the game will help me get thru Mrs Walkers book better.

I probally then wasted my money by buying this book. My IQ is only 140. :laugh: Probally everyone else to on this board with an IQ of less then 190. I don't know how many people we have here with a IQ of 190. Maybe we should have a poll?
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
Shad - sorry I missed you. I was there Tuesday.

My first live play with Sp21. I played BS with bet variation only. I wasn't ready with indices, and as a matter of fact, I reworked the inidices I'm going to use. In the book, Katarina suggests using indices from -6 to 0, ignoring the splits and doubles, to create an "I18 of Sp21." I believe this is a poor choice. First, why memorize a bunch of negative count indices, where you'll have a minimum bet out, if you're playing them at all? Second, why ignore the splits and doubles?

What I did is I created a spreadsheet of indices from -4 to 0, including splits, doubles, and LS. This gave me 18 indices for regular play + 4 LS indices. I'm working on memorizing them, and it's easier if you think about it that as the count rises, the index play becomes more like BJ BS, as there are more 10's present.

In AC yesterday, I backcounted into one shoe and stayed for 2 more, one of which went significantly positive. I spread from 1 hand of $25 to 2 hands of $200 with no heat. As a matter of fact after a $2K win from the 3 shoes, the PC congratulated me. Most players were idiots, playing the "match the dealer" bet and groaning at me as I made proper Sp21 BS plays, such as hitting 14 v 2 and not splitting 6's against a dealer 3.

Some of the rules are pretty neat, such as after splitting A-A, and getting another A, I split again. Also, I did one double down forfeit (like Surrender, but after a double), where I doubled on a 7-4, drew a 5, and the dealer had an 8 showing.
 
The importance of the indices

I'm grinding out a strategy, and on my first preliminary one these are the 11 most powerful indices, and their approximate order of value:

Surr 16 vs. 10
Surr 15 vs. 10
Surr 16 vs. A
Surr 16 vs. 9
Stand 14 vs. 3
Surr 15 vs. A
DD 9 vs. 5
Surr 15 vs. 9
Stand 13 vs. 5
DD 10 vs. 9
Stand 14 vs. 2

Like in BJ, the 16 vs. 10 one is worth about as much as all the others put together. Although I'm using a counting system different than Kat's, this order should hold for all counting systems, just like the Illustrious 18 holds for all systems in blackjack.
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
My list is almost the same (with a few additions.) Only one not on my list from the above is Surr 15 v 9, simply because the index TC value is higher than my cutoff (+2, which is equiv to a BJ TC of +6.)
 

Knox

Well-Known Member
Yeah, the negative indices don't make a lot of sense if you are wonging. Even if you are not wonging, KO preferred directs you to ignore negative indices on 6D and 8D shoes. I only play negative indices on SD and DD, where play variation is more valuable and you actually see more of those negative counts at the outset, are less likely to wong in, etc.

I agree that the Royal Match can be a pain, it is always irritating when play slows down to pay all those ploppy side bets. The plus side is that it makes them lose more quickly, so you don't have as stale a group of ploppies as otherwise. It also puts more $ in the house's pocket, helping to preserve a playable game for me and my compadres on here.

I was able to get some heads up play at a place that is crowded 24/7. Then the table filled up as ploppies spilled over from the neighboring 6D table. Play then came to a grinding halt. However, once I left and cashed out I think a few of them did too.

Next time I will just take a break. I assume they will then scatter like the wind as their loss rate increases. As I see it now they are like deer that tend to seek the safety of the herd. If the table is empty or only has 1-2 players, I don't think they are as likely to try to crowd their way in. We'll see tomorrow.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
21forme said:
IIn AC yesterday, I backcounted into one shoe and stayed for 2 more, one of which went significantly positive. I spread from 1 hand of $25 to 2 hands of $200 with no heat.
Sounds like a good start! Just wondered what count you entered at. How long it took to get maybe get some entering counts. Anyway a 1-16 spread backcounting is pretty awesome. Do any playall?

Basically, it seems to me maybe those SCORES seem very comparable to BJ 8 deck games as far as comparing the game itself. Maybe not lol.
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
Kasi said:
Sounds like a good start! Just wondered what count you entered at. How long it took to get maybe get some entering counts. Anyway a 1-16 spread backcounting is pretty awesome. Do any playall?

Basically, it seems to me maybe those SCORES seem very comparable to BJ 8 deck games as far as comparing the game itself. Maybe not lol.
I came in at about -2. The next shoe went positive pretty quickly, then back to neutral so I played the whole shoe. The third shoe went negative at the beginning, so I conveniently got a phone call, when it turned marginally positive a few rounds later, I came back in. Not quite play-all, but close.
 

zengrifter

Banned
21forme said:
My first live play with Sp21. I played BS with bet variation only. I wasn't ready with indices, and as a matter of fact, I reworked the inidices I'm going to use. In the book, Katarina suggests using indices from -6 to 0, ignoring the splits and doubles, to create an "I18 of Sp21." I believe this is a poor choice. First, why memorize a bunch of negative count indices, where you'll have a minimum bet out, if you're playing them at all? Second, why ignore the splits and doubles?.
Your question reveals some confusion. Kat? zg
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
21forme said:
I came in at about -2. The next shoe went positive pretty quickly, then back to neutral so I played the whole shoe. The third shoe went negative at the beginning, so I conveniently got a phone call, when it turned marginally positive a few rounds later, I came back in. Not quite play-all, but close.
Thanks - just was wondering.

Here's my take on
"In the book, Katarina suggests using indices from -6 to 0, ignoring the splits and doubles, to create an "I18 of Sp21." I believe this is a poor choice. First, why memorize a bunch of negative count indices, where you'll have a minimum bet out, if you're playing them at all? Second, why ignore the splits and doubles?."

First I think she suggested indices from -6 to +1?

Deleting all the indexes for splitting pairs doesn't mean much as most are high negative anyway. For the couple that are close, they're close whether you split or not I'd guess and you're not going to get them very often anyway.

Likewise deleting all the indices for soft hands doesn't effect much - most counts won't happen often anyway. Let alone actually getting them.

Deleting indices greater than -1 for the 9 doesn't effect the 9 double at all basically.

I think she suggested learning down to -6 for those situations when you might be playing heads up and leaving could be impractical. And the - 5 and -6 effect stiff hands that you will get often like 14 vs 5,6 and 15 vs 2,3,4.

Just my thoughts.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
Automatic Monkey said:
I'm grinding out a strategy, and on my first preliminary one these are the 11 most powerful indices, and their approximate order of value:

Surr 16 vs. 10
Surr 15 vs. 10
Surr 16 vs. A
Surr 16 vs. 9
Stand 14 vs. 3
Surr 15 vs. A
DD 9 vs. 5
Surr 15 vs. 9
Stand 13 vs. 5
DD 10 vs. 9
Stand 14 vs. 2

Like in BJ, the 16 vs. 10 one is worth about as much as all the others put together. Although I'm using a counting system different than Kat's, this order should hold for all counting systems, just like the Illustrious 18 holds for all systems in blackjack.

This got me thinking whether you are taking the frequency of these hands occurring along with an average bet at that count given some system? Maybe even betting or playing efficiency of some counting system?

Or maybe it's just from an EV point of view compared to BS maybe?

Anyway, I'd love some EV tables for the AC game. And frequencies of initial hands. And advantage percents at TC's for diff levels of pen. Can Norm's software figure stuff like this out - is that how you do it or you have your own ways lol?

Do you have any thoughts as to what the playing efficiency and betting efficiency is for Hi-Lo for a 6/8 AC game?
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
Are there any 6D SP21 games in AC?

Do you have any thoughts as to what the playing efficiency and betting efficiency is for Hi-Lo for a 6/8 AC game?

Are there any 6D SP21 games in AC? All I've seen are 8D games.
 

Kasi

Well-Known Member
21forme said:
Do you have any thoughts as to what the playing efficiency and betting efficiency is for Hi-Lo for a 6/8 AC game?

Are there any 6D SP21 games in AC? All I've seen are 8D games.
Sorry - didn't mean to get your hopes up lol. Meant an 8 deck dealt to 75% lol.
 

Katarina Walker

New Member
A good start is always to read (and then quote) the actual text

21forme said:
Shad - sorry I missed you. I was there Tuesday.

My first live play with Sp21. I played BS with bet variation only. I wasn't ready with indices, and as a matter of fact, I reworked the inidices I'm going to use. In the book, Katarina suggests using indices from -6 to 0, ignoring the splits and doubles, to create an "I18 of Sp21." I believe this is a poor choice. First, why memorize a bunch of negative count indices, where you'll have a minimum bet out, if you're playing them at all? Second, why ignore the splits and doubles?

What I did is I created a spreadsheet of indices from -4 to 0, including splits, doubles, and LS. This gave me 18 indices for regular play + 4 LS indices. I'm working on memorizing them, and it's easier if you think about it that as the count rises, the index play becomes more like BJ BS, as there are more 10's present.

In AC yesterday, I backcounted into one shoe and stayed for 2 more, one of which went significantly positive. I spread from 1 hand of $25 to 2 hands of $200 with no heat. As a matter of fact after a $2K win from the 3 shoes, the PC congratulated me. Most players were idiots, playing the "match the dealer" bet and groaning at me as I made proper Sp21 BS plays, such as hitting 14 v 2 and not splitting 6's against a dealer 3.

Some of the rules are pretty neat, such as after splitting A-A, and getting another A, I split again. Also, I did one double down forfeit (like Surrender, but after a double), where I doubled on a 7-4, drew a 5, and the dealer had an 8 showing.
On page 91, I explain how to abridge your indices to the Illustrious 18, using exactly the same algorithm as the I18 for Blackjack uses. That's why it's called the I18. I didn't make up the idea of using I18, and I didn't make up the algorithm. I copied it from Blackjack. Obviously, the value of an index depends on your bet size at that count. It is not possible to work out an I18 unique to each person's betting style, so a generalised one is done for the "play-all" playing style. Obviously, if you don't play at non-advantageous counts, you don't have to memorise those indices.

Splitting indices are not valuable to the player, relatively speaking, compared to other indices, because split hands are quite rare. Note that we still use BS splitting strategy in the I18. This is mathematically proven by Don Schlesinger, whose work I quote. If your hunch tells you otherwise, you obviously value intuition over science, which begs the question, why play any strategy at all?
Doubling indices, however, are very valuable.

Nowhere does it say use -6 to 0, and forget doubling.
What it does say is:
Delete all indices outside the -6 to +1 range. (cf Blackjack I18 uses -2 to +5.)
Delete all indices for splitting pairs (i.e. use BS for splitting pairs. The same thing is done for BJ I18).
Delete all indices for soft hands (just like for BJ I18).
For hands of 11 or less (i.e. doubling indices), delete all indices less than -3 (cf BJ, where the I18 uses doubling indices greater than 0 and less than +4).
Therefore, you are left with all your doubling indices between -3 and +1 inclusive.
Delete all surrender indices less than -4 or greater than -1 (cf BJ I18 which deletes surrender indices less than 0 and greater than +3).
For redoubling, delete indices for 5 and 6.
Obviously, BS is used at neutral count.

I understand that it is easy to read something, and remember something other than what was written, but if you are going to go on a public forum, it doesn't look that good to be misquoting books.
 

Katarina Walker

New Member
A good start is always to read (and then quote) the actual text

21forme said:
Shad - sorry I missed you. I was there Tuesday.

My first live play with Sp21. I played BS with bet variation only. I wasn't ready with indices, and as a matter of fact, I reworked the inidices I'm going to use. In the book, Katarina suggests using indices from -6 to 0, ignoring the splits and doubles, to create an "I18 of Sp21." I believe this is a poor choice. First, why memorize a bunch of negative count indices, where you'll have a minimum bet out, if you're playing them at all? Second, why ignore the splits and doubles?

What I did is I created a spreadsheet of indices from -4 to 0, including splits, doubles, and LS. This gave me 18 indices for regular play + 4 LS indices. I'm working on memorizing them, and it's easier if you think about it that as the count rises, the index play becomes more like BJ BS, as there are more 10's present.

In AC yesterday, I backcounted into one shoe and stayed for 2 more, one of which went significantly positive. I spread from 1 hand of $25 to 2 hands of $200 with no heat. As a matter of fact after a $2K win from the 3 shoes, the PC congratulated me. Most players were idiots, playing the "match the dealer" bet and groaning at me as I made proper Sp21 BS plays, such as hitting 14 v 2 and not splitting 6's against a dealer 3.

Some of the rules are pretty neat, such as after splitting A-A, and getting another A, I split again. Also, I did one double down forfeit (like Surrender, but after a double), where I doubled on a 7-4, drew a 5, and the dealer had an 8 showing.
On page 91, I explain how to abridge your indices to the Illustrious 18, using exactly the same algorithm as the I18 for Blackjack uses. That's why it's called the I18. I didn't make up the idea of using I18, and I didn't make up the algorithm. I copied it from Blackjack. Obviously, the value of an index depends on your bet size at that count. It is not possible to work out an I18 unique to each person's betting style, so a generalised one is done for the "play-all" playing style. Obviously, if you don't play at non-advantageous counts, you don't have to memorise those indices.

Splitting indices are not valuable to the player, relatively speaking, compared to other indices, because split hands are quite rare. Note that we still use BS splitting strategy in the I18. This is mathematically proven by Don Schlesinger, whose work I quote. If your hunch tells you otherwise, you obviously value intuition over science, which begs the question, why play any strategy at all?
Doubling indices, however, are very valuable.

Nowhere does it say use -6 to 0, and forget doubling.
What it does say is:
Delete all indices outside the -6 to +1 range. (cf Blackjack I18 uses -2 to +5.)
Delete all indices for splitting pairs (i.e. use BS for splitting pairs. The same thing is done for BJ I18).
Delete all indices for soft hands (just like for BJ I18).
For hands of 11 or less (i.e. doubling indices), delete all indices less than -3 (cf BJ, where the I18 uses doubling indices greater than 0 and less than +4).
Therefore, you are left with all your doubling indices between -3 and +1 inclusive.
Delete all surrender indices less than -4 or greater than -1 (cf BJ I18 which deletes surrender indices less than 0 and greater than +3).
For redoubling, delete indices for 5 and 6.
Obviously, BS is used at neutral count.

I understand that it is easy to read something, and remember something other than what was written, but if you are going to go on a public forum, it doesn't look that good to be misquoting books.
 

Katarina Walker

New Member
Why Spanish 21 advantage play is no harder than BJ advantage play

InPlay said:
I probally then wasted my money by buying this book. My IQ is only 140. :laugh: Probally everyone else to on this board with an IQ of less then 190. I don't know how many people we have here with a IQ of 190. Maybe we should have a poll?
I am wondering why people think you need to be smarter to count SP21 than count BJ, using the Hi-Lo.

1. Both use the same counting system.
2. You don't need to know any of the conditional plays in Spanish 21, which makes SP21 BS no more complex than BJ BS.
3. Using Illustrious 18 in SPanish 21 is, relatively speaking, more effective than in BJ.
4. Once you get used to counting a negative running count, you'll find it easier than in Blackjack, where you are continually swapping between a negative RC and a positive RC, which is confusing.
5. 10-spot cards look like 9-spot cards, if your eyesight is less than perfect, so it is easy to make counting errors in BJ. In SP21, all the money cards look distinct from the rest of the pack, which makes counting easier.
6. You don't have to worry about taking insurance when the count gets high enough.

As a result of points 1 through 6, I personally find playing SP21 easier than BJ.
Maybe players forget what it was like when they first learnt how to play Blackjack.

Incidentally, 190 is 6 std deviations above the mean IQ of 100. The probabilty of someone being 6 std dev above the mean is 1 in 165 million. That's roughly two people in the whole U.S.A.
 

Katarina Walker

New Member
SP21 S17 advantage play EV

Knox said:
So what kind of EV can we expect from your system then? Assuming 6D S17, 1-10 spread.

Gracias.
If you bet proportionally, and back-count, and the pen is 81.25%, you can get a 2.2% EV from S17 6D. That is from simulation.

As for 1-10 spread, I wouldn't know, as I don't use betting spreads. I bet proportional to my advantage. I know my advantage at every count from simulation. That is the optimal way to play.

Remember, if you aren't betting proportional to your advantage (and inversely proportional to your variance, but that doesn't change much, so you can forget about that), you are not winning as much you should be, and your std dev will be higher and your ROR will be MUCH higher than it should be. You can slash your ROR and simultaeously increase your win rate by quite a lot just by decreasing your bet increment (i.e. how much you increase your bet as the count goes up by 1), but increasing your spread, so that you are always betting proportional to your advantage.
The only reason why a true Blackjack expert might not bet perfectly proportionally is for reasons of camouflage. There is no other reason, because it's too damn expensive in win rate and ROR to justify any other way.
As long as the count is increasing, so should your bet be, unless you need the cover.
 

Katarina Walker

New Member
Spanish 21

Automatic Monkey said:
I have the book too and I have a confession: I've been playing SP21 with an advantage for quite a while. The book is confusing in some ways however I already have gotten enough additional information from it to make it worth the green chip I paid for it in my first hour of play. On another site seven dwarves and a monkey are busy rewriting Kat's book with their after-commentary, and that is extremely valuable too.

SP21 is not easy and it is not for beginners, for a variety of reasons, however for an advanced East Coast or Canadian player it offers a valuable opportunity. That said, I think especially with the S17 variant a level 1 count really isn't going to extract maximum benefit from the game. A few features of the game were hinted at but not thoroughly discussed in the book, and as an active player I'm glad for that!
A single-level count is not optimal for Spanish 21, just as it is not optimal for BJ. Bear in mind that the EOR for a 5 in BJ is 0.84 (H17, DAS, LS) but the EOR for a 2 is only 0.42 in BJ. Half as much! Yet they both use the same tag in Hi-Lo. Out there, it is Hi-Lo players that are bringing in most of the profits.

But that's the price we pay if we want a counting system we can play for hours, with few errors. My objective was to present a way of beating SP21 by using the same popular system used by BJ counters. A 2-level count would be far superior, but beyond the reach of >95% of players.

The reality is that all those tricky BS plays in SP21 are completely unnecessary for the counter. Once you eliminate them, the game is no harder than BJ.

On rge21.com, a few typos have been pointed out (like "to" instead of "too"), and my BS play for 9 versus 7 for the redoubling game was corrected. Nothing of any significance (the 9 versus 7 plays are so close in EV that todouble instead of hit would cost nothing in real terms). So to say that people are rewriting my book is an exaggeration of a pretty tall order, and not very fair, considering it took me 3 years to write, including 6 months fulltime just to get my self-written simulator working. I don't mind valid, accurate or constructive criticism. I just don't see the point of negative hyperbole or people who don't have the playing knowledge, experience, or intelligence to understand what I'm trying to communicate. (The latter does not refer to you, as you are obviously an elite player.)

I think the fact that so many people are talking about my book says a lot. If it was crap, nobody would buy it, or bother discussing it on forums, like most gaming books.
 

21forme

Well-Known Member
Katarina Walker said:
Doubling indices, however, are very valuable.

Nowhere does it say use -6 to 0, and forget doubling.
What it does say is:
Delete all indices outside the -6 to +1 range. (cf Blackjack I18 uses -2 to +5.)
Delete all indices for splitting pairs (i.e. use BS for splitting pairs. The same thing is done for BJ I18).
Delete all indices for soft hands (just like for BJ I18).
For hands of 11 or less (i.e. doubling indices), delete all indices less than -3 (cf BJ, where the I18 uses doubling indices greater than 0 and less than +4).
Therefore, you are left with all your doubling indices between -3 and +1 inclusive.
Delete all surrender indices less than -4 or greater than -1 (cf BJ I18 which deletes surrender indices less than 0 and greater than +3).
For redoubling, delete indices for 5 and 6.
Obviously, BS is used at neutral count.

I understand that it is easy to read something, and remember something other than what was written, but if you are going to go on a public forum, it doesn't look that good to be misquoting books.
Where I said In the book, Katarina suggests... ignoring the splits and doubles I meant splits and soft hands, not splits and doubles. My mistake. I apologize.

While it may not look good to misquote a book, it also doesn't look good to publish a book full of errors (some of which I pointed out on Don's site.) Although it's hard to discern someone's "tone of voice" in a written post, I believe I detect some petulance in your reply, which really is unnecessary.

2. You don't need to know any of the conditional plays in Spanish 21, which makes SP21 BS no more complex than BJ BS.
Does this include trying to hit into a 6-7-8?

BTW, would you care to comment on how many copies have been sold so far? Thanks for your book and thanks for being available for questions and corrections as we go through the learning process.
 
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