The Straw That Broke the Camels Back

[KewlJ]

I initially brought up that topic as warning to other players, both traditional card counters and non card counters. Doing so did not make me very popular among some other AP's, for obvious reasons.

I suggested players take a look at the specific model for themselves and compare results to normal accepted result ranges. I still recommend players do that. And that is all I will say on the subject.

 

[JohnCrover]

Can we have a miscellaneous section for this forum?

 

[LV Bear]

Can we have a miscellaneous section for this forum?

This is it.

 

[Rattler1]

I initially brought up that topic as warning to other players, both traditional card counters and non card counters. Doing so did not make me very popular among some other AP's, for obvious reasons.

I suggested players take a look at the specific model for themselves and compare results to normal accepted result ranges. I still recommend players do that. And that is all I will say on the subject.

So you stand by your claim that you own a machine and that there's a beast mode feature? If so, what's the manufacturer, model number and software version?

How did you get it? The manufacturers don't do direct sales to individuals.

Independent labs test both the hardware and software... so they would have to be involved in this scheme. If the manufacturer was collaborating with labs and casinos on something like this, that would pretty much shut down the gaming industry. You would be justified in questioning the fairness of every single casino game.

So I would say that the odds that you aren't lying (or possibly just mistaken) about these claims are probably about one in a million or so.

 

[KewlJ]

What part of "that is all I will say on the subject" was unclear to you?

Even if I hadn't made certain promises to different people, I don't see a single question of the bunch that I would answer in public to a member that I don't know.

About the only thing I can say is this machine bought overseas is no longer in my possession.

 

[Rattler1]

Of course it's clear to me. It's clear to me that you're lying... making outrageous claims without producing a shred of evidence.

The only other possibility is even worse: that out of loyalty to a couple AP's who are making a few bucks hitting some exploitable side bet, you're allowing everyone else to get slaughtered and be cheated by multibillion dollar corporations, while you have evidence of this great injustice.

 

[BoSox]

I do not think players should be trying to compare their own results from when playing ASM vs when they are playing games that are not set up with them. Not only will the sample sizes be too small, but playing rules may be slightly different not to mention heat levels, camo used or not etc, etc. More importantly, you cannot compare your results with others playing against those machines as people's skill sets are all different including systems used, spreads, and conditions etc, etc.

Although there is a better way for everyone to be on the same level for a more true comparison and that is based on specific pen levels. Are the true count frequencies percentages being seen consistently out of whack? I believe, if there was any kind of cheating going on you would see it in irregular numbers of true count frequencies occurrences.

 

[BoSox]

KewlJ stated not long ago regarding "beast mode" on automatic shuffling machines: "I now have the machine in my possession" and "All I can say is that there is a cheating feature built in and we are trusting the casino industry not to use this feature? Ah.... NOT this guy!"

Those types of outrageous claims shouldn't be tolerated.

If it was an honest mistake then I apologize for calling you out but you still should have clarified afterward; claims like that send a lot of people into a frenzy.

This is my own recollection of what happened:
When those discussions were ongoing regularly KJ had his own suspicions about cheating taking place and set himself in motion to investigate it. Amazingly he acquired one such machine, but as it turned out that was the easy part of the problem. After awhile KJ realized that the only way possible to prove his suspicion was that he needed a professional programmer, to see if the machine could do what he suspected. Trying to find the right person to do this was going to be harder than he thought. Abruptly everything came to a halt when angry posts started. Now seriously does that sound like he was making OUTRAGEOUS CLAIMS? What CLARIFICATIONS did he need to make when he was only speculating and theorizing himself? All of it is documented on Norm's site when KJ used the handle Spiderman.

 

[Rattler1]

You don't think that stating that you obtained a machine and that "there is a cheating feature built in" is an outrageous claim?

I certainly do... for all of the reasons that I already outlined in my prior posts.

 

[21forme]

done

 

[BoSox]

You don't think that stating that you obtained a machine and that "there is a cheating feature built in" is an outrageous claim?

I certainly do... for all of the reasons that I already outlined in my prior posts.

Rattler1, everyone is entitled to their opinion, thanks for yours. I happen to believe the man, but regardless who is right or wrong both of us are speculating and both of our words on the matter count for shit.

 

[KewlJ]

Rattler1, everyone is entitled to their opinion, thanks for yours. I happen to believe the man, but regardless who is right or wrong both of us are speculating and both of our words on the matter count for shit.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion hun? Well then let me state mine.

Rattler1 joined this site back in August, at the height of the discussion on this topic on the other forum. But he never participated until a week ago. and since then has only opined on this one topic only.

So my opinion is that Rattler1 has a dog in this fight. Someone suggested privately that maybe he was one of the AP's that wanted to poo poo this idea. BUT those AP's want NO discussion on this topic where as Rattler1 restarted this discussion. That leads me to believe he is associated with the manufacturer of said machines, or the property that was discussed. But you can bet he has an interest in this topic and is trying to get a particular "spin" out there.

 

[Rattler1]

I am definitely not associated with the manufacturer... I guess I could email you my OSN profile to prove that I am not if I really needed to (not that I can imagine any situation in which I would do that)... but I do have a dog in this fight. Every blackjack player does and really every gambler does.

It almost seems to me that you think that your claim that you obtained a unit and found that cheating functionality is built in is kind of innocent and inconsequential? You think we should all just go on with our lives and thank you for the heads up?

I think you really underestimate the consequences if your claim were true. That would mean that the independent labs that test the games to make sure they're fair and operational are collaborating with casinos and manufacturers to cheat the player. That's a truly massive allegation and it really would shut down the gaming industry in this country. People would go to jail, the stock prices of large public companies would plummet, etc.

I don't think that's possible and that's why I claim that you're lying.

It's a poor analogy in a lot of ways but I can't think of a better one off the top of my head: what you did by making that claim is kind of like someone screaming "BOMB!" in a crowded movie theater. If you're going to make that bold of a claim, you'd better be prepared to back it up. You're offended by my challenging you to back it up.

I know you won't and your excuse is that you made promises to certain AP's who are exploiting it somehow, and I don't believe it. If by some miracle that were true, I think that it would be absolutely morally reprehensible that you would enable large corporations to cheat players who think they're playing a fair game.

We are going in circles here. So obviously not gonna get anywhere with your current stance. But just wanted to provide my two cents and respond to your suggestion that I am associated with the manufacturer.

 

[KewlJ]

Ok, I am going to briefly (I hope I can keep it brief) comment/respond and I am going to get a lot of grief for doing so. And then I am simply not going to discuss this anymore publicly. I don't know who you are (by this handle) and I just don't wish to publicly discuss this topic any longer for several reasons. And btw, your comment about sending me your OSN profile makes no sense. I could send you a hundred different OSN profiles. How does that prove anything.

I already detailed how I became suspicious and what I did, manually tracking hundreds of sessions of times through the decks to confirm an abnormally high number of true counts. Next I acquired a machine, privately from half way around the world. And low and behold the unit I acquired had the exact same capability. I am not a tech type guy, so my first assumption was that this capability was standard, or the way the machine left the manufacturer. In working with another AP, learning as he went, who is very tech savy, it turns out this capability is not functional when the unit leaves the manufacturer.

So I was wrong in that aspect. BUT, it is pretty easy to get the machine to that capability, for anyone who knows what they are doing. In other words, I believe the manufacturer is still complicit. They know, I think even built in this 'backdoor' capability. Sort of a wink and nod. They are protected because any unit tested will not show that capability, but that backdoor capability to alter is easily available to anyone who has even the slightest knowledge. And to show just how common it is....a unit I randomly acquired had the capability. That is no coincidence. That tells you just how common (and easy) this "altering" is.

That is all I am going to say. The capability is there. The manufacturer has protected themselves, but they left in or put in this backdoor capability. And for that, someone should be held responsible. But I am not the one to do it. I am guessing no other AP is willing to step up and get involved. And the non-AP players probably haven't even figured out what is occurring when they are victim to this situation, which is not widespread...at least at the moment. But there will come a time that somebody brings a case and brings this to light.

In the mean time, all I wanted to do was warn players. If they feel something is wrong, take a closer look for themselves. I did that. I have actually now learned a good deal more, but that is all I am willing to discuss publicly and I shouldn't have even done that. You can believe whatever you like and call me whatever you want. My part in this is done.

 

[KewlJ]

Oh and I am going to say one thing about the casino that was mentioned at the time (4 months ago).

This discussion started on Norm's site and then followed me here. A third party took the discussion to a third site, WoV. So within a few days the discussion, mentioning the specific casino was on 3 different AP sites. And guess what. Within a week (it might have been 10 days), the 2 units at that particular store were switched out, replaced by older models and have not made a return appearance. There are other LV players that play that location regularly that can confirm this.

Obviously, someone at the location read, or got wind of the discussion. If there was nothing to it, you tell me why those machines were immediately switched out when this discussion went public?

 

[ZenKinG]

Oh and I am going to say one thing about the casino that was mentioned at the time (4 months ago).

This discussion started on Norm's site and then followed me here. A third party took the discussion to a third site, WoV. So within a few days the discussion, mentioning the specific casino was on 3 different AP sites. And guess what. Within a week (it might have been 10 days), the 2 units at that particular store were switched out, replaced by older models and have not made a return appearance. There are other LV players that play that location regularly that can confirm this.

Obviously, someone at the location read, or got wind of the discussion. If there was nothing to it, you tell me why those machines were immediately switched out when this discussion went public?

I guess Harrahs in chester PA as well as in vegas is using this with their ASMs. I got absolutely crushed at Harrahs PA 2 years ago with great rules and deep pen with a SCORE of over 120 betting 2x250 for over 100+ hours to the tune of -15k AS SOON as they switched from 8 decks to 6 decks, coincidence, i think not. Thats probably when they enabled beast mode lol. As soon as I get to harrahs in vegas i also drop 3k in 1.5 hours.

I also dont know of any counter that ever wins long term at any Harrahs property around the country. That place needs to be investigated next. I still have nightmares from those trips to Chester. It was brutal and close to -3SD if not higher after a small but decent sample size

 

[KewlJ]

Losing 3 k in 1.5 hours is no sample size at all. That is not even worthy of a mention.

100+ hours is a worthy sample size. If what you say is true, it is worthy of investigation. So investigate.

I personally did not take my initial mention of this topic lightly. If I accuse someone of cheating, I am as damn sure as I can be that they are cheating.

But I have no problem with you or anyone else like a couple other guys in the community that seem to make accusations with less certainty (or investigation). I view it as a warning. Maybe we should all take a closer look at some of these things. Maybe some will turn out to be just unusual results from a small sample size. Maybe some will turn out to be more. What is lost by warning others of your suspicion and having them take a look for themselves and come to their own conclusions?

Rattlers assertion that casinos will not cheat because they have too much to lose is just bullshit. Mindplay was cheating. Preferential shuffling is cheating. Dealing seconds which still occurs, not widespread, but still occurs is cheating. The casino industry has a long history of cheating.

 

[BoSox]

Wherever the truth lies there seems to be a deliberate effort in the AP community to suppress the story. Many current and old threads discuss just how low and underhanded the casino industry will go to reach their bottom line. Encourage drinking with free offerings, exploit addicts of all kinds, constant rule changes to increase house edges, and the barring of AP players who are smart. We have forums where established players help out beginners, and part-timers by giving back and we think we are superior human beings compared to the casino management teams that represent the slime of the earth. But apparently, there are those in the AP community who could care less whoever gets stepped on and ruined in the process of exploiting a play. So it may very well turn out that all these forums and helping others is all one big facade and in reality, most everyone is bottom feeders. If the story turns out to be true, "in my mind" it will be a real reflective mark on us all.

 

[Rattler1]

Okay... first of all, thank you for your response. If it turns out that by some miracle you're correct then I will gladly buy you a $300 gift certificate to L'atelier de Joel Robuchon in apologies for calling you a liar.

Let me see if I can piece this all together now. I am not the brightest bulb in the box by any means, so please correct me if I am wrong on any of this:

1. You bought a Deckmate 2 on Ebay or something. This Deckmate 2 (which does have card recognition capability), has a secret mode that a tech-savvy individual can opt into. You mathematically verified this by running a couple decks of cards through this machine thousands and thousands of times... and came up with some conclusion along the lines of "a true 10 occurs 50% more often than it would with a completely random shuffle at the halfway point of a double deck game."

2. El Cortez heard about these accusations and immediately swapped out their Deckmate 2's with Deckmate 1 (which doesn't have card recognition so the machine isn't capable of this sorting).

3. The big independent labs that verify all of the software, such as GLI, either somehow missed this secret mode that you and your AP buddy found so quickly. Either that or, they did find it, but didn't think it was a big deal and approved of the machines anyway because casinos are all so upright and trustworthy that they would never use something like that to take advantage of a player.

4. Certain pit bosses are aware of this mode, and when Joe Card Counter comes along... he starts betting $25. A few minutes later at the end of a double deck shoe, Joe is throwing out $500 bets, then at the shuffle starts betting $25 again. The pit boss casually walks over, asks Joe Card Counter how he is doing and flips on "beast mode." This likely strips Joe Card Counter of a month's worth of EV in a half hour and he walks away defeated, with an empty wallet.

5. The pit bosses/ surveillance/ others involved in casino operations, many of whom play and count cards in other casinos, choose to keep their mouths shut about this, because they are the most loyal group of people on the planet. Even though many of them make $16 an hour and have credit card debt and rent to pay, and they could certainly assure themselves of a big payday if they chose to capitalize on this information, out of loyalty to the greater good of the stockholders of Caesars Entertainment Corporation, they keep their mouths shut.

6. You don't take videos of the process and post them anonymously on YouTube. You don't share your data regarding the high true counts. You don't even hang onto the unit as proof. You don't pass this along to some litigious individual who would love to go to bat with this against greedy cheating corporations. You sell it on Ebay to someone who lives overseas and we are all left without a shred of proof... just vague claims made on internet blackjack forums by a stranger.

 

[Rattler1]

By the way, I just want to clarify that I am not just trying to be a sarcastic jerk in the above post. I really am thankful that you chose to provide some clarification and I really would buy you a gift certificate to your favorite Vegas restaurant if it turns out you're being honest and accurate.

My post above was just my best stab at taking all of the info that you have posted on various forums and compiling it into a narrative that could possibly make sense in the real world.